THE DOCTOR AND THE SHEIKHS' DEBATE
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"What remains [lawful] from Allah is best for you, if you would be believers.
But I am not a guardian over you."
He writes: When Mahdi rises he will have Kabaa as his base and 313 of his companions will join him and then for the first time he will cite this verse of the Quran: "What remains [lawful] from Allah is best for you, if you would be believers. But I am not a guardian over you" so he will say:
"I am Baqiyatallah and the God's vicegerent and his Hujat for you".
Allamah Qabisi mentions in Maza Fi Al Tarikh, volume 3, page 145- 147 for the interpretation of verse number 8 Surat Taqhabun:
So believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Qur'an which we have sent down. And Allah is acquainted with what you do.
He writes: Hafiz Abu Jafar Muhem Ibn Jarir Tabari said: At Hajj the Prophet (s.a.w.a) said: "Oh People, " ﺃَﻧْﺰَﻟْﻨﺎand ﺍﻟَّﺬِی ﺍﻟﻨُّﻮﺭِ ﻭَ ﺭَﺳُﻮﻟِﻪِ ﻭَ ﺑِﺎﻟﻠَّﻪِ "ﺁﻣِﻨُﻮﺍ then he said: Light is in me and then in Ali and then in his descendants until Qaem Mahdi rises.
Sh: God willing this worldwide ruler rises soon and with his ruling he amends this world.
Dr: People can be guided by ruling their government and can be swayed towards God that way.
As how famously the Arabs say: " ﻣﻠﻮﻛﻬﻢif ﺩﻳﻦ ﻋﻠﻲ ﺍﻟﻨﺎﺱ " the ruler is a politician and a non believer then the people will then be and act the same as he is because he considered a role model.
Sh: That is correct.
Dr: Just compare this all with Lebanon. There was a time when it was the centre of pleasure for the rich Arabs in the world. Now when you look at it, it is the centre of Jihad and resistant.
Dr Amr Moosa: It wasn't just a place of pleasure for the rich Arabs but also for the European Tourists too.
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Dr: But now it is now a symbol of resistance against Israel.
Sh: Praise the Lord, Praise the Lord. We got to know Mahdi much better.
Dr: It is time for Asir prayer. Please allow me to leave.
Sh: Have a good day and we will see you tomorrow.
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Day Seventh of Zihijjah (Friday)
We agreed to meet again at the Sheikh's hotel after the Zuhr's prayer and then after having lunch we started talking again.
Dr: Before we start I wanted to ask your opinion on the Friday Sermon (Khutbah) that the Masjid Al Haram Imam was talking about.
Sh: What was your opinion?
Dr: I think that they have realised the attention people are now paying to the Ahl al Bayt and so therefore, they too have started to talk about them.
Sh: Just the fact that they have come to realise the Ahl al Bayt by itself has its own gratitude because no other country shows this much hatred towards the Ahl al Bayt. I have the seen the love the people have for the Ahl al Bayt in Egypt.
Dr: It is the same everywhere. It's only when you come to Saudi Arabia and Pakistan that people are slightly less inclined to the Ahl al Bayt. And that is as because of the Wahabis. It has spread to Pakistan too.
Sh: Let's pass this part of the conversation. What happened to the continuation of the discussion?
Let's not waste any time.
Dr: Time is never wasted at your side.
Sh: I am just scared that we run out of time and don't get to talk about the Caliphas.
Dr: Would you like to talk about the Caliphas today?
Sh: Praise the Lord for finally agreeing to talk about this topic now. Let's start.
The Debate over Caliphate
Dr: In the name of God. Let's start.
Sh: So if you could tell me your opinion regarding the ruling of the Caliphas. Do you accept them or not?
Dr: It is very good timing as we are in the hotel and especially because besides you there are you friends and Sheikh Usman Abubakr is also a scholar from Egypt and Alazhar so it's good that we are talking about this now.
Sh: Thank the Lord.
Dr: So allow me firstly to bring up a couple of points regarding this topic independently and then we can summarize.
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Sh: Would you mind giving me a list of them?
Dr: Yes, I can but at the end of the discussion we summarize not after every topic.
Sh: Please give me the list. I don't think it would so important if we ended up summarizing it after every topic. Maybe it would be best to conclude after each topic so please give us the list.
Dr:
1. The difference between the Prophet and the Caliphas 2. The disagreement in the way the Caliphas were chosen 3. The number of Caliphas after the Prophet 4. The companions objection over Ali not being chosen as Calipha 5. Ali's superiority over the other Caliphas 6. The result of the actions over eliminating Ali from being chosen as Calipha after the Prophet 7. The Prophet's testimonial over Ali being Calipha after him 8. Ghadir Khumm
Sh: Very well please start.
Dr: I will keep it short but each one will take a day.
Sh: That is okay. Please start.
1- The Difference between the Prophet and the Caliphas
Dr: First of all, let me ask you a question. Would that be okay?
Sh: Yes, please.
Dr: Did the Prophet name a successor after him?
Sh: He did not choose a Calipha.
Sh Usman Abubakr: Well when the Prophet was sick Abubakr went to the Mosque and conducted the prayer instead of him and because the Prophet did not object to this then it was clear that he was happy for him to be his successor.
Sh: Of course this is not any proof for choosing a successor.
Dr: Can we come with an answer from you both honorable Sheikhs? Did he choose a Calipha after him or not?
Sh: He did not.
Dr: Very well. I have a very strange thing to state that might amaze you.
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Sh: What thing?
Dr: This isn't my opinion in reality it is yours but for me to analyse your opinion I would need to state it this way and then it will sound weird.
Sh: Is it eventually our opinion or yours? We agreed for you to state your opinion.
Dr: An opinion is an opinion. It doesn't matter whether it is from you or me or anyone else but it is your belief.
Sh: What is this thing?
Dr: In my opinion you believe that the Caliphas were wiser than the Prophet and cared more for the Ummah than he did.
Sh: We seek refuge in God ( ﺑﺎﷲWhen .)ﻧﻌﻮﺫ have we believed in such a thing? Where would you have seen such a statement? You have never stated such a thing from us from the day we have started this discussion. Where is the source of this opinion? We do not consider the Caliphas to be even in the same rank as the Prophet never mind consider them to be wiser or more compassionate.
Dr: Why did this offend you? Do you remember in the beginnings of our meetings I told you that I hear many times that us; Shias believe in Khan Al Amin, meaning Gabriel betrayed us and instead of sending God's words to Ali he sent it to the Prophet. I never got angry. I proved that such a thing doesn't exist. Please don't get upset. If I am wrong then bring me proof that what I am saying is incorrect but I proved that this belief is true then as usual please accept it.
Sh: Very well please tell me why do we consider the Caliphas to be wiser than the Prophet?
Dr: The reason why I say this is based on your books, Abubakr and Umar thought that an Islamic Ummah cannot be without a leader and that it's in need of one and therefore they acted wisely and passionately. After the passing of the Prophet in order to prevent people from being dispersed and scattered they appointed a successor.
Sh: Well how is that proof of them being wiser than the Prophet?
Dr: You are stating that the Prophet did not do such a thing; he did not appoint a successor.
Sh: So it is clear to me that you just wish to start an attack. We agreed for you to state your opinion regarding the Caliphas. This is an attack on the Caliphas.
Dr: This is not an attack. I started with asking what your opinions are; do you consider the Caliphas to be wiser than the Prophet himself?
Sh: Just like Sheikh Usman said: the Prophet did assign a successor however not in a very straight forward way.
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Dr: When did he do such a thing? You, just now stated that he did not.
Sh: Not in a straight forward way but he did imply.
Dr: Just now stating that the Prophet did not explicitly choose a successor but Abubakr and Umar did is stating that they were wiser than him.
Sh: We seek refuge in God (
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Dr: We have an explicit announcement.
Sh: [With Laughter] I did think that you were going to bring up Ghadir Khumm but there the Prophet announced to like Ali he didn't say, have him as your Calipha.
Dr: This is a very key discussion. Thankfully we have my programme and proof with me. I will explain this issue using your own books as I have interesting points to make there.
Sh: God willing we shall see. I will wait for them. But I do accept that the lack of choosing a Calipha by the Prophet is an intriguing point.
2- The Disagreement over the way the Caliphas were Chosen
Dr: I wish to ask another question and that is if we assume that the choosing of a successor was suppose to be by the Prophet and he did not do so. How do you think the Caliphas acted?
Sh: Where is the problem?
Dr: The problem is that based on the credible history of our Sunni brothers, there is four ways to choose a Calipha.
1. The choosing of Abubakr: He got chosen by the Saqifah council that had been assigned.
2. The choosing of Umar: Abubakr chose him and there was no committee involved.
3. The choosing of Usman: This was done by the council. The same council that Umar had assigned. The council had agreed that if the votes were equal then whomever Abdul Rahman Ibn Ouf had voted to, will be assigned as the Calipha. Usman was chosen.
4. The choosing of Ali: He was chosen by the people and by their request.
I want you to tell me which of the ways I mentioned is the correct way? First was by committee.
Second was chosen by one person. Third was chosen by conditional committee and fourth was by the people.
Sh: That is right. There are different methods but all of them could be right because they were the decisions of the companions and they were based on the situations they were under.
Dr: Did the companions base theses methods on the religious studies they had previously done or based on their personal taste?
Sh: They have been mostly based on personal taste.
Dr: Do you think for such an important task such as choosing a Calipha, can one go by their personal taste or by the order of God and the Prophet's Sunnat.
Sh: There wasn't a way chosen by the Prophet for them to follow.
Dr: There was a way introduced but they did not go.
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Sh: Do you mean Ghadir?
Dr: Yes, what better way than that?
Sh: How do you mean by Ghadir?
Dr: Every Calipha could have chosen the next one. But the problem was that they already knew that what they are doing is a mistake. That is because it did not comply with the other Hadith's.
The Prophet had already chosen a Calipha.
Sh: What Hadith's do we have regarding this topic?
Dr: The Hadith's regarding the Caliphas.
Sh: Which Hadith?
3- The Number of Caliphas after the Prophet
Dr: We have Hadith from the Prophet saying that there will be twelve Caliphas after me and they are all from Quraysh.
Sh: I have seen and heard many times that there are to be twelve.
Dr: Please see how much proof we have. First Hadith is Sahih Bukhari number 6683 and Muslem Hadith number 3396:
ﻗﺮﻳﺶ ﻣﻦ ﻛﻠﻬﻢ ﺧﻠﻴﻔﻪًْ ﻋﺸﺮ ﺍﺛﻨﻲ ﻋﻠﻴﻪ ﻧﺎﻭﺍﻫﻢ، ﻣﻦ ﻋﻠﻲ ﻳﻨﺼﺮﻭﻥ ﻋﺰﻳﺰﺍً ﺍﻻﻣﺮ ﻫﺬﺍ ﻻﻳﺰﺍﻝ
"Be assured that Islam will be glorious with... for twelve Caliphas that are all from Quraysh."
Please have a look at my programme and you will see that there are 30 different books stating the same thing. The most important ones are Muslem and Bukhari that discuss the same topic.
Muslem does have another Hadith, number 3393, 3394 and 3395:
ﻗﺮﻳﺶ ﻣﻦ ﻛﻠﻬﻢ ﺧﻠﻴﻔﻪ ﻋﺸﺮ ﺍﺛﻨﻰ ﻳﻤﻀﻲ ﺣﺘﻰ ﻗﺎﺋﻤﺎً ﺍﻣﺘﻲ ﻣﺮ ﺍ ﻻﻳﺰﺍﻝ
"The lifeline of my Ummah will stay strong for the entire of the twelve Caliphas that are all from Quraysh."
In some of the Hadith's such as Musnad Ahmad Hanbal, Hadith number 3665, the number "Chiefs of Bani Israel" has also been mentioned.
Sh: That is correct.
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Dr: The same is mentioned in Bukhari and Muslem but Fat-h Al Bari explains in the interpretation of Sahih Bukhari , volume 3, page 183 about government and choosing Amir's and then in the end there is an adverbial that is important.
ﺍﻟﺤﻖ ﺩﻳﻦ ﻭ ﺑﺎﻟﻬﺪﻱ ﻳﻌﻤﻞ ﻛﻠﻬﻢ ﻗﺮﻳﺶ، ﻣﻦ ﻛﻠﻬﻢ ﺍﻣﻴﺮﺍً ﻋﺸﺮ ﺍﺛﻨﻲ ﺑﻌﺪﻱ ﻣﻦ ﻳﻜﻮﻥ
"After me there will be 12 Caliphas. All of them will be of Quraysh and all of them will act in accordance with guiding and a religion based on justice (God)"
Sh: That is very interesting that you have gathered all of this.
Dr: In Savaeq Muhraqah, volume 1, page 56, in Al Mataleb Al Aaliyah Ibn Hajar, volume 12, page 490, Hadith number 4608, in Umdat Al Qari correct interpretation of Bukhari, volume 35, page 328, in Fat-h Al Bari Fi correct interpretation of Sahih Bukhari, volume 13, page 213, Feyz Al Qadir, volume 2, page 583, in Dalayel Al Nobowah Beyhaqi, volume 7, page 473, Hadith number 2894 and you can see them all until the end. There are 16 cases and all of them say the following:
ﺍﻟﺤﻖ ﺩﻳﻦ ﻭ ﺑﺎﻟﻬﺪﻯ ﻳﻌﻤﻞ ﻛﻠﻬﻢ ﺧﻠﻴﻔﻪ ﺍﺛﻨﺎﻋﺸﺮ ﻣﻨﻬﺎ ﻳﻜﻮﻥ ﺣﺘﻲ ﺍﻻﻣﻪ ﻫﺬﻩ ﻳﻬﻠﻚ ﻻ
"My Ummah will not perish when they have twelve Caliphas that all act on guiding and conducting justice based on religion."
Sh: I accept. I had already accepted the twelve Imams from start.
Dr: Very well. You agree that the Prophet has named twelve Caliphas.
Sh: Yes.
Dr: Do you accept that these twelve have to be the real Caliphas and they should not make any mistake or at least very limited amount of mistakes?
Sh: Yes, of course they couldn't be like the Prophet. They must have had small mistakes.
Dr: Well not like the Prophet but at least they should not be conducting sins.
Sh: You are right, yes that is right.
Dr: Very well, let's have a look and see that who does our brother Sunni's accept as the twelve Caliphas.
Sh: Yes, let's have a look.
1. Abubakr
2. Umar
3. Usman
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4. Ali
5. Hasan
6. Muawiyah Ibn Abusofiyan
7. Yazid Ibn Muawiyah
8. Muawiyah Sani (Yazid's son)
9. Marwan Hakam
10. Abd Al Melk Marwan
11. Walid Ibn Abdol Malek
12. Soleyman Ibn Abdol Malek
Sh: That is right. The twelve are these.
Dr: Now please elaborate could Muawiyah, Yazid, Marwan Ibn Hakam and the rest until at least Umar Ibn Abdul Aziz be chosen as the Prophet's Caliphas? Especially considering the last Hadith I stated " ﺍﻟﺤﻖ ﺩﻳﻦ ﻭ ﺑﺎﻟﻬﺪﻱ ﻳﻌﻤﻞ "
Sh: They did make mistakes but the companions had chosen them.
Dr: Do we base the choosing of Calipha on what the companions think or having the competence and qualifications for being the Prophet's Calipha?
Sh: No, their competence and ability is much more important.
Dr: Alright then. Please tell me can Yazid that conducted all of those crimes or Muawiyah that fought with the Calipha that was chosen by the people or Marwan whom was in war with Ali, could all possibly be the Prophet's Calipha? Even though some of the Sunni brother's consider them as kings who agree with the last Hadith Muslem and Bukhari said.
Sh: They had problems.
Dr: It is past problems. A Calipha goes to war against another Calipha like Muawiyah going to war with Ali. What kind of Calipha is that? Dear Sheikh come and see who Muawiyah is. His father Abu Sofyan was in war with the Prophet which Muawiyah himself was in those wars too.
His mother is Hend whom cut out Hamza's (Prophet's uncle) heart out in the war of Ohod.
Sh: He eventually claimed repentance and came to Islam.
Dr: He claimed repentance and came to Islam that is fine. He can be a Muslim but he can also be the Prophet's Calipha?
Sh: Unfortunately what you are saying is right.
Dr: Dear Sheikh, you are aware of this famous Hadith regarding Ammar and Yasir has been mentioned in all of your books, especially in Bukhari, Hadith number 428 and 2601; Sahih Muslem, Hadith number 5192 and 5193 and Musnad Ahmad 6211 volume 13, page 249 all say: