THE DOCTOR AND THE SHEIKHS' DEBATE
Page 122
Dr: In Shia'sm the differences between our Religious Jurist's is not even as much as yours. What I mean to say is that all of our practices and recitals regarding praying are the same. It might be possible for some of the chain of transmissions whilst prostrating is different, very rarely of course or else their opinions in praying are all the same.
Sh: If they are so similar then why did you open up a discussions regarding imitating?
Dr: There is a difference between choosing to imitate and to not having any differences in imitating. Jurists, Scholars that you can refer to cannot work based on their own taste. They have to be very reasonable once they are trying to extract an ordinance from the Quran. What I mean is, they must have, a thorough dominance on the Arabic language and Sciences such as contextual, study of Hadith, biographies of the narrators of traditions and ordinances that have been previously extracted, so they can be able to implement a new ordinance.
Sh: We only implement new Fatwa's (provisions) based on new issues and for the old issues we pursue what the Four Imams in their books have said.
Dr: Based on the beliefs and Fatwa's that our scholars have given, one cannot imitate someone that is dead. However if a person was previously imitating someone that has recently passed away then based on the thing he is imitating on, he can follow the ordinances of the old one. But for a person that has not had any previous imitates and is now of time to do so, he cannot choose someone that has passed away and is under no circumstances allowed to follow them.
Sh: So everyone is imitating a person that is alive?
Dr: Precisely, this is because in reality a religious Jurist that is being imitated is in fact acting as an Imam. It is not possible to imitate an Imam that is dead or if a question rises, it is not possible to go ask them anything.
Sh: We can answer questions but we are not allowed to change any practices and recitals in praying.
Dr: The problem is that our issues are not always just for praying. For instance, for Hajj, there are consistence changes in the place of Safa and Marwah, where to Sacrificial slaughter, Remy Jamrat (Pebbles Remy) and similar to these situations. These new issues need to be answered to.
Sh: These things are not changed until the people in charge question them.
Dr: It appears as if though that the people in charge act based on needs and it is highly unlikely to question the Jurists.
Sh: Would they at least ask for their approval?
Dr: Yes, they ask for their approval but if you pay attention, these approvals are consistently being changed and the order of the government has been more influential.
Page 123
Sh: The governments order is more influential, that is correct however the opinions of the highly honored scholars are also considered.
Dr: Has there ever been any questioning from the University of Alazhar saying that they wish to change a certain thing regarding the current situation of one of the practices for instance, Remy Jamrat (that is consistently being changed)?
Sh: No, they ask the Sheikhs and highly honored scholars of Saudi Arabia.
Dr: Do they imitate other Sheikhs and Jurists of other countries too?
Sh: They have no choice because these changes have been already done.
Dr: Well our scholars call for opinions when they want to change anything.
Sh: Give me an example.
Dr: For instance if the slaughterhouse is outside of the Valley of Mena, then the sacrificial is not accepted. Some of the slaughterhouses are currently outside of Mena.
Sh: Then what do you guys do?
Dr: The Iranian associations of Hajj have chosen slaughterhouses that are inside of Mena.
Sh: This complicates things.
Dr: This is an example. Not all of the Imams that are being imitated on have the same opinions on this matter but I just wanted to give you an example that in this case, Ijtihad and imitating, dynamics and activation is happening. The livelihood of the Mufti in this situation is not under any pressure to follow whatever change that has happened.
Sh: But Islam is permissive.
Dr: There is a difference between being permissive and being active.
Sh: But being active will complicate things more.
Dr: Allow me to give you an example. Thirty years ago when I came to Hajj, your scholars did not allow any toilets to be installed in Arafa. This matter inconvenienced so many pilgrimages.
Every year many people would suffocate in barrels of impure water. Now after many efforts there is not only toilets but also they allowed tree planting and now the pilgrimages are in a relatively calmness.
Sh: Yes, those days was really bad.
Page 124
Dr: When we talk about livelihood we mean that proportional to the circumstances the Imams and Jurists should set ordinances. In fact the main reason for our Imams setting any Fatwa's is all because they wish to simplify the practices of Hajj.
Sh: Yes, you are right, the Fatwas are meant to facilitate people's needs.
Dr: We don't concentrate on simplifying or making strict ordinances. We say the ordinances are there. In essence the ordinances are already simplified. We would never change any ordinances just because some feel that it is hard to do.
Sh: Yes, you are correct but the Prophet has said be permissive.
Dr: Our religion is simplified in the practices but there is wisdom necessary for managing it. For instance do you remember they were burying two million slaughtered sheep when there were several Islamic countries that were suffering poverty and lack of protein?
Sh: These issues have been resolved now.
Dr: Yes but it was due to the many follow-ups of the advanced Islamic countries in specific Iran and the Fatwa's of its Jurist regarding this matter that induced them to currently package the meats and send them off to poor Islamic countries.
Sh: Praise be to Allah, it is much better.
Dr: There are still many problems. Every year when it comes to Hajj we still are losing life due to different causes such as fire or bridge falls and etc...
Sh: These accidents are unpredictable.
Dr: It can be predicted it just needs stronger management.
Sh: For instance flooding has nothing to do with management or if a bridge falls, there is nothing management can do about that.
Dr: You can prevent flooding by gathering all the waste on a regular basis. That reduces the risk of flooding and unfortunately that is not happening. For instance, on way to Remi Jamarat there are many empty bottles, slippers, shoes, wasted food and worse, people are sleeping in the corners of the street. There are two reasons why the bridges fall. Firstly, the amount of weight it can carry has been calculated by mistake. Secondly, the ordinances that are not compulsory have been deemed compulsory therefore everyone wishes to conduct it in its specific time causing chaos for instance the Remi Jamarat or circling the Kaaba. If the Jurists would announce a change of opinion that it is not necessary in Hajj for pilgrims to conduct non compulsory ordinances this would not happen.
Page 125
Sh: Of course that would work better. Most of the scholars don't even conduct on ordinances that are non compulsory at these times but the common people still insist on conducting them.
Dr: But surely you can understand our debate on livelihood. This clarifies what the point is that I am trying to make.
Sh: If it is okay with you. Let's hold on with our debate for now today. I have a problem meeting you tomorrow for Zuhr because I have been invited by an old friend from the University of Medina.
Dr: That is not a problem. Actually my roommates have asked me to have a chat with them tomorrow lunch time when they have more free time. At night times they go out shopping with their women.
Sh: Then if it is okay lets continue our debate the day after tomorrow as I am a guest somewhere.
Dr: I am at your disposal. Anytime you wish, I can be available to meet with you.
Sh: Then goodbye until the day after tomorrow.
We said goodbye and he left. At night we went shopping for souvenirs with my friends and my wife. Not to compete with the other pilgrims of Hajj before us but to obey our duty as unfortunately after pilgimaging and praying, buying souvenirs is one of the most important duties of pilgrimage.
Unfortunately, this shopping questions the dignity of the Iranian pilgrims. When the people from other countries see how the Iranian pilgrims raid the bazaars buying goods from China or non Chinese products, they are amazed.
We went to buy brief souvenirs enough to say that you were in our thoughts. We bought mostly for family and close friend and enough to at least commence on out non compulsory duties.
The women would choose and we would try to get involved and then end up paying for it. We returned to the hotel and continued doing what I always used to do which was to go to Al Masjid an Nabawi for the morning prayer, then to Baqi, then back to the hotel to have breakfast and to sleep until it was Zuhr and to get ready for the Zuhr prayer.
Page 126
Day Twenty Fourth of Zyqadeh
I met the Sheikh when I went to the Mosque for the Zuhr prayer. I realised that he is accompanied with the friend that he was with the day before. I said hello and Sheikh introduced me as a professor of the University in Iran. He introduced his guest to be Sheikh Hamid Al Najdi a professor from the University of Medina.
Getting Acquainted With Sheikh Hamid Al Najdi
Dr: Dear Sheikh, you are from the same city as Sheikh Muhammad Ibn Abdul Wahab.
Sh Hamid: Yes, How did you know that Najd is the city of where Sheikh Muhammad Ibn Abdul Wahab is born?
Dr: All of the books that have mentioned his life refer to that city.
I showed him my business card.
Sh Hamid: Are you involved in the automotive industry?
Dr: Yes.
Sh: He isn't just involved in automotive industry he is a Sheikh as well.
Dr: No I have worked in automotive industry.
Sh Hamid: Where have you done your education?
Dr: I studied my bachelors in Iran, my Master's and Doctorate in England.
Sh Hamid: How did you learn Arabic?
Dr: I personally had a lot of interest and to be able to understand the sources of religion better, I learned it.
Sh Hamid: I have met many Iranian scholars but they are not able to speak Arabic this way.
Dr: Firstly, that is because I am not a scholar. Secondly, they were from the old ages, nowadays most of our scholars, especially our young students are familiar with Arabic and can speak very well.
The call for the first prayer was sung and then the call for the second prayer was done. The prayer started. Afterwards...
Sh Hamid: me and Sheikh Ibrahim are alone, you can also be my guest.
Dr: No, thank you very much. I would not wish to be of any bother.
Page 127
Sh: If you don't have to be anywhere else please join us. It will be good. Just think of it as being our usual daily debate time. We could even discuss some things in the presence of Sheikh Hamid.
Sh Hamid: Please don't consider yourself to be of any bother. My family is not at home and it is only me and Sheikh Ibrahim. Please allow a technical discipline amongst your group.
Dr: I will come with you but I really hope that I am of no inconvenience.
Sh Hamid: No, you are not an inconvenience.
Dr: Alright then, I will come under one condition, and that is for us to stop at my hotel so I can bring my mobile that contains the programme with me.
Sh Hamid: That won't be a problem.
We went to my hotel driving Sheikh Hamid's car and I took some Persian sweets and snacks with me. I told my friends where I was going and that I was having lunch with Sheikh Ibrahim and Sheikh Hamid, at his place. We drove until it was close to the Quba Mosque. Sheikh owned a very nice villa there. I was a guest for lunch at his place. The outside design of his house was structured in a traditional Arabic way and inside it was designed with beautiful traditional Arabic sofa and furniture. There was tea, coffee, juice and lunch ready.
Debate in Sheikh Hamid's House
There was only one male maid in Sheikh Hamid's house and he appeared to be there for hospitality. Sheikh Hamid's family had gone to visit their family so this gathering would have been without much ceremony.
They prepared lunch. Food was brought from the chained restaurant in Saudi Arabia called Al Baik. Sheikh Hamid started to explain what each food was. Sheikh Ibrahim was familiar with the food too and I also said that I knew most of the foods and that I even knew the owner of Al Baik, a true Palestine. They were amazed once I told them that.
Sh Hamid: It is good that you are familiar with the food. How many times have you traveled to Saudi Arabia?
Dr: My 15th time.
Sh Hamid: 15th time?! (he said with astonishment). Were they all Tamattu?
Dr: No, Seven times for Tamattu Hajj and 8 times for Umrah.
Sh Hamid: It appears that you are fond of travelling.
Page 128
Dr: I am fond of travelling but mostly to the Holy shrines, Mecca, Medina. That is because the history of Islam was structured here.
Sh Hamid: History in Saudi Arabia is gradually being destructed because most of the historical sites have been demolished.
Dr: What is your opinion on this matter?
Sh Hamid: I am completely against it. In other countries they preserve their cultural remains even though it might not have any ethical effect or even be against ethnicity and humanity. They even savor it for tourists to come and see but here they just destroy what they have without any hesitation.
Dr: Dear Sheikh, I came here thirty years ago. Most of the historical sites were around Al Masjid an Nabawi, Bani Hashm's street, Quba Mosque, Mea Mosque (hundred), some of the most honored Islamic figures were still there. Now they have destroyed it all just so they can expand the Mosque.
Sh Hamid: They could have expanded the Mosque in other directions.
Dr: Dear Sheikh Hamid, may I ask you something?
Sh Hamid: Sure, please go ahead.
Dr: How can you be a professor of Medina University, and be against the actions of the government?
Sh: Dose anyone whom is a professor at Medina University has to agree with the actions of the government especially the non-cultural aspects of it.
Dr: I was under the impression that you were allowed.
Sh Hamid: Well if we do have any objections, we do not state it publicly but we do talk about it in our friendly gatherings inside or outside the university.
Dr: Allow me to ask you a more serious question. Are you a Wahabi?
Sh: There are two kinds of Wahabis. One group is the ones that follow Sheikh Muhammad Ibn Abdul Wahab but are against the actions of the government regarding the religious sections. The reason behind that is because it has had a negative influence on the Muslims of other schools.
The second group are the extremists that are working for the government and mostly the religious works are under their supervision.
Dr: Do you see any difference in these two kinds?
Page 129
Sh Hamid: Yes, the first kind recognises Sheikh Muhammad Ibn Abdul Wahab to be a religious scholar just like other scholars and acknowledge that he has had some opinions that accompanies with Ibn Teymiyah seven hundred years ago. There were many that were against Ibn Teymiyah and he died in jail. But Sheikh Muhammad Ibn Abdul Wahab was lucky because at his time there was a specified political era where it not only did not go against his opinions but it even assisted in its distribution.
Dr: What is your opinion Sheikh Ibrahim?
Sh: We had the same opinion as Sheikh Hamid before. The people outside of Saudi Arabia were more restricted for instance Sheikh Hamid is Saudi Arabian and I am Syrian. Maybe that's why my immigration to Egypt and Alazhar was permitted.
Dr: Sheikh Ibrahim, you were defending the Wahabis beliefs.
Sh: Yes I was favourable towards them and even promoted them but after I went to Egypt my opinions changed. Especially my beliefs were weakened.
Sh Hamid: How long have you two been meeting with each other?
Sh: A couple of days ago, accidently we met in Al Masjid an Nabawi and have been meeting up with each other. I have not been able to answer back any of the analysis the Doctor has been debating with me because as usual he either cites the Quran or the books of Sunni faith. I have to be frank that there is not much I can debate with him anymore.
Sh Hamid: We are blessed dear Sheikh Ibrahim. How come you have had nothing to respond against the analysis of a Doctor that specialized in automotive industry?
Sh: [With laughter] I have not managed to respond to him accordingly, if you can why you don't try.
Dr: No, he is a very honorable man, we just talk to each other as two teachers, only he is an expert and I am a student
Sh Hamid: In which fields have you been debating?
Dr: Many, if you agree lets have lunch and then I can ask you some questions. That is if you all decided to read the Asir prayer at your house.
Sh Hamid: We shall read the Asir pray at my house. So let's have lunch first.
Lunch was finished and they cleared the table. Someone brought the snacks over with Arabian coffee. Whilst we were having lunch, Sheikh Hamid talked a bit about Iran and its political situation, which were all good. The time for Asir prayer arrived.
Page 130
Sh Hamid: Let us Wudu and pray. Will you be following leadership in prayer with us or will you be praying again at another time.
Dr: Some believe that they should pray again after the congregational prayer finishes. That is because not all of the etiquette of the prayer is identical. However, most of the Authority of initiation does not see a problem with congregational prayer in Mosques and therefore there is no need for re- reading the prayer.
Sh Hamid: How about yourself?
Dr: The person I imitate from does not see the necessity for re reading the prayer.
Sh Hamid: So you can be following leadership in prayer with us?
Dr: Yes, I did read my Asir prayer after I finished reading my Zuhr in the mosque however;
because of the congregation here I will read again but intention it for a prayer that was compensatory (missed). I read the Asir prayer with Sheikh Hamid leading the congregational prayer. After the prayer:
Sh: Dear Doctor what is the supplication after the Asir pray. Let us read it.
Dr: It is not the place.
Sh: Yes, it is, Sheikh Hamid, They have supplications after their prayers. It would be very interesting for you to hear. Please ask the Doctor to read them.
Sh Hamid: It would be nice if you read it Doctor.
Dr: There is no necessity.
Sh Hamid: Supplication after prayer is good. Please read on.
Dr: I will do as you wish.
ﺍﻧﻲ ﺍﻟﻠﻬﻢ ﻳﺴﻤﻊ ﻻ ﺩﻋﺎ ﻣﻦ ﻭ ﺗﺮﻓﻊ ﻻ ًْﺍﻟﻠﻬﻢ ﺻﻼﻩ ﻣﻦ ﻭ ﻳﻨﻔﻊ ﻻ ﻋﻠﻢ ﻣﻦ ﻭ ﻳﺨﺸﻊ ﻻ ﻗﻠﺐ ﻣﻦ ﻭ ﺗﺸﺒﻊ ﻻ ﻧﻔﺲ ﻣﻦ ﺍﻋﻮﺫﺑﻚ ﺍﻧﻲ ﺍﺗﻮﺏ ﻭ ﺍﺳﺘﻐﻔﺮﻙ ﺍﻧﺖ ﺍﻻ ﺍﻟﻪ ﻻ ﻓﻤﻨﻚ ﻧﻌﻤﻪ ﻣﻦ ﺑﻨﺎ ﻣﺎ ﺍﻟﻠﻬﻢ ﺍﻟﺸﺪﻩًْ ﺑﻌﺪ ﺍﻟﺮﺧﺎء ﻭ ﺍﻟﻜﺮﺏ ﺑﻌﺪ ﺍﻟﻔﺮﺝ ﻭ ﺍﻟﻌﺴﺮ ﺑﻌﺪ ﻴﺴﺮ ﺍﻟ ﺍﺳﺄﻟﻚ ﺍﻟﻴﻚ
"O Allah, I surely seek your protection against a self that never has enough, a heart that does not feel apprehension, knowledge that does not avail, a prayer that is not accepted, and a supplication that is not responded, O Allah, I surely beseech You for easiness after difficulty, relief after misfortune and comfort after hardship. O Allah, You are certainly the source of each and every favor that covers us. There is no God save You. I pray Your forgiveness and repent before You."
Sh Hamid: That was interesting.
Page 131
Sh: I said the same thing.
Sh Hamid: Well please go ahead. What was your question?
Dr: I have question regarding several cases.
Sh Hamid: What cases?
Dr: I have questions regarding Wudu, chain of transmissions, standing, prostrating and confession.
Sh: Dear Sheikh Hamid, please answer the Doctors questions. I will remain quiet and will just listen.
Dr: Please still be active in this debate.
Sh: I have been in enough debates with you. Please allow Sheikh Hamid to be involved this time.
Dr: In any case, I will ask the question and anyone of you honorable people who wishes to answer it, would be great.
Sh Hamid, there are no problems regarding Wudu and Salat between the Muslims. There is no difference between Wahabis or non Wahabis.
Dr: In fact that is why I asked the question. But now that you mentioned Wahabis allow me to ask another question.
Sh Hamid: Please ask away.
Dr: Do you agree with assembling a congregational prayer by force?
Sh Hamid: There is no such thing as a forced congregational prayer.
Dr: I met with a Sudanese teacher a couple of years ago in Mecca and he told me that half of the Saudis that participate in the prayers have not even commenced ablution. They might later on pray in their own time but they come so they are in the congregational pray of the Saudis.
Sh Hamid: Not all, but yes some might do this.
Dr: He spoke of corruption too and the pressure that the Government Wahabis have put on the people has had no effect.
Sh Hamid: There might be corruption but not in the public eye. It is hidden.
Dr: Corruption is hidden in all cities.