THE DOCTOR AND THE SHEIKHS' DEBATE
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Sh: We just had lunch. How are we able to eat these sweets?
Dr: They have a phrase where they say salt first and then halouaa afterwards.
Sh: Yes, you are correct but I will be a bit cautious because my blood sugar is higher than it should be normally. It is very hard to resist eating these delicious sweets.
Sh: I am the same. I even eat glucose tablets.
After speaking about the hotel and my roommates especially the two that were the snorers we spoke about Iranian snacks and the combination of their sweets. Dr Ahmadi arrived and said a few words in Arabic to the Sheikh. He greeted him and then the Sheikh asked if he was the one that snored. I said, no, they have gone to the Shrine. I told Dr Ahmadi to rest and that we would keep the volume low so we would not bother him. Dr Ahmadi said that he will just sit in a corner and will not intervene in our discussion as he was not fluent in Arabic and that if it was a problem he could go. I asked him to stay and that it was not a problem and I was sure he would understand quite a bit of our discussions.
Sh: So let us start. If it is possible, please respond to the question I had yesterday. Then what is your opinion about the Caliphas.
Dr: Before we start this discussion do you have any questions regarding temporary marriages?
Sh: No, it was very interesting for me. When Aisha had accepted the temporary marriage and she is a woman then it is very clear for me where I stand.
Dr: Let's pay attention to the fact that Aisha died forty years after Umar and that she spoke against his saying.
Sh: Yes I agreed to it now let's go back to my previous question.
Dr: You have an incredible amount of interest to hear the answer of your question don’t you?
Sh: Yes, it is very important because I wish to know your personal opinion on this matter.
Dr: Can you ask the question again clearly so I can respond accordingly.
Sh: My question is this: What is your opinion regarding the Caliphas? Do you accept them as Caliphas too or not?
Dr: I look at the case of what happened after the Prophet in different ways.
Sh: How do you see it?
Dr: Dear Sheikh if you would agree lets discuss this when we have talked about everything else leading up to this question. The debate over the Calipha itself, leadership (Imamat) and Faqih
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(Jurist), all have very accurate matters that need to be covered. Even though their importance is very high but we need to discuss things like the eligibility of all of the Prophet's fellowship. This was covered and dealt with or similar matters to it need to be spoken about. That would make it so much easier to answer your question.
Sh: Doctor, you are trying to run away from starting this crucial discussion.
Dr: Honestly I am not trying to run away I just like getting to the branches and leaves of the matter before getting into the roots and essence of it.
Sh: Very well. I am your guest so I will surrender.
Dr: Come on; please don’t see it this way. You are very welcome here and we agreed to agree on all the topics we discuss.
Sh: True, I agree so if you are okay we could continue discussion the topic regarding Baqi and how the dead people are being portrayed.
Dr: That is good.
Sh: I have seen it for several times that Shias come to pilgrimage and cry instead of pray when they are close to the Ahl al Bayt's graveyard. Even when I was in Syria I saw that the Shias were crying and mourning in the presence of Seyedeh Zainab and Seyedeh Ruqayyah, someone that has passed away 1,000 years ago. Why is there a need to cry for them? They should just send their regards, read the Al Fatihah supplication and leave.
Dr: If you agree let's have a debate here regarding several things.
Sh: Debate about what?
Crying For the Dead
Dr: Crying for the dead, visiting the graves, building a structure over graves and or amending them, kissing and blessing their shrines and imploring to them etc…
Sh: That is a lot now. In my opinion discussing the graves is possible but discussing restoring someone that is not God has nothing to do with the graves and is a tremendous mistake.
Therefore, let's separate the two. Let's talk about the topics in relation to the graves another time.
Dr: I agree, which one do would you like us to continue with? (From now I won't be mentioning referring to the programme on my mobile as I carry it everywhere and refer to it every time I mention a Hadith)
Sh: Let's discuss the crying only because we have a Hadith that crying disturbs the dead person and everyone has cited it.
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Dr: That is correct. I have this Hadith on my mobile. The truth is that some of the people that have cited this are either nonexistent or unreliable. For instance Ahmad Ibn Hanbal in the book of Tahzib Al Kamal (refinement of perfection in the names of men), section 16, page 70 says that Isaac Ben Sayar who has also been one of the people that has talked about the same thing (go and calm them down) has called it false and has said that he would portray the weak Hadith to be strong but in Imstadrak Al Sahiheyn, section 1, page 381 and also Musnad Ahmad section 2, page 444 says that one day the Prophet and Umar were at a funeral and the women were crying. Umar forbid them to cry and the Prophet said:
" ﻗﺮﻳﺐ ﺍﻟﻌﻬﺪ ﻭ ﻣﺼﺎﺑﻪ ﺍﻟﻨﻔﺲ ﻭ ﺩﺍﻣﻌﻪ ﺍﻟﻌﻴﻦ ﻓﺎﻥ ﺩﻋﻬﻦ ﻋﻤﺮ ﻳﺎ "
"Umar leave them be, they are teary eyed due to the trauma and the sudden distance and separation that has recently happened for them"
Sh: But Ibn Umar has mentioned this Hadith again afterwards right?
Dr: If you read the Hadith completely you see that Aisha rejected his opinion in the presence of the Son of Umar (Abdullah Ibn Umar) and completed the Hadith that the truth was not this.
Sh: But subsequently there are plenty of people that have cited this Hadith and similar Hadith regarding not crying over the dead.
Dr: Even if what you say is truth and these sayings are from Umar it would not have any authority. The most important reason is based on the fact that the Prophet told him to leave them as they are.
Sh: This is correct that a Calipha has no authority to deny what the Prophet has previously said:
to be but we cannot accept the Caliphas saying to be similar to other followers.
Dr: If you just accept this one thing then all other issues would be solved and that is that spoken words of the Calipha or the Prophet's followers have no authority over the Prophet's words.
Sh: These people are not talking from their own opinions. They are reciting the Prophet's and God's words.
Dr: But if they spoke from their own opinions and it was against what God and his Prophet were saying, what do we do then?
Sh: We don’t accept them.
Dr: You accepted this matter when it came to temporary marriage and Mutat Al Hajj and Taravih Prayer even though Umar had spoken against it and literally said that these two matters were lawful in the time of the Prophet but I will ban them. The Taravih prayer was also an individual supplication pray in the time of the Prophet and it was advised to read non compulsory prayers in the comfort of our own homes but Umar changed that too.
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Sh: Doctor you are referring to something that has already been covered and agreed upon. Please do not repeat it again I accepted the temporary marriage case and accepted that I believe in your opinion.
Dr: The discussion we had before was a very important debate. I just want to remind you that the prominent reasons as to why our Sunni brothers and us Shias have differences is all because of the actions of the companions, the Prophet and the manners of our Caliphas.
Sh: Do you have at least one cite to say that the Prophet himself cried for the death of someone?
Dr: As a matter of fact I do. I have three documents stating that the Prophet cried for the death of a person.
Sh: Please tell me then as that is more important than the previous Hadith we discussed.
Dr: Firstly in Musnad Al Tayaalisi, section 4, page 389, Hadith 1515 and 1531. Also in Mustadrak Al Sahiheyn section 1, page 514 says that Aisha said: when Usman Mazon died the Prophet opened up and cried so much that tears ran across his cheeks. In document 1531 Umar Ibn Hamid says that the Prophet firstly kissed Usman Mazon's face and then cried so much that tears ran across his cheeks.
Sh: I have not seen this Hadith.
Dr: Here you are. It says in Maktab Al Shamlah.
Sh: This Hadith is very important.
Dr: Secondly, the crying over Ibrahim, his son, which has been covered in many, books such as:
Sunan Ibn Majah section 5, page 69, Hadith 1578. In Sahih Al Bukhari section 3, page 172 and 173. In Shahih Al Muslem section 4, page 1807 and section 5 page 1808 that when Ibrahim died the Prophet "So he kissed him (Ibrahim) and smelt him and Ibrahim had passed away",
" ﺑﻨﻔﺴﻪ ﺗﺠﻮﺩ ﻭﺍﺑﺮﺍﻫﻴﻢ ﻭﺷﻤﻪ ﻓﻘﺒﻠﻪ "
Then people complain and the Prophet says:
"
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"ﺍﻧﻲ ﻭﻟﻄﻢ ﻟﻤﺼﻴﺒﻪًْ ﻋﻨﺪﺍ ﻭﺻﻮﺕ ﺷﻴﻄﺎﻥ ﻣﺰﺍﻣﻴﺮ ﻭﻟﻌﺐ ﻟﻬﻮ ﻋﻨﺪﻧﻌﻤﻪ ﺻﻮﺕ ﻓﺎﺟﺮﻳﻦ، ﺍﺣﻤﻘﻴﻦ ﺻﻮﺗﻴﻦ ﻋﻦ ﻧﻬﻴﺖ ﻭﻟﻜﻦ ﺍﻟﺒﻜﺎء ﻋﻦ ﺍﻧﻪ ﻟﻢ ﺟﻴﻮﺏ ﻭﺷﻖ ,"ﻭﺟﻮﻩ
"I never forbid you to cry. I told you all not to make two brainless noises, one was when it is as you are very happy and you laugh out loud, talking, making sounds like Satan.
Second, the sound that comes from weeping, self harming over sadness and ripping ones clothes."
Sh: I have heard about that but the last part.
Dr: Thank the Lord. The last part is also in Bukhari and Muslem.
Sh: Please tell me the other case that you mentioned.
Dr: The other case is when Hamza was martyred. It has been mentioned in Subule Al Huda Va Al Rashad, section 4, page 222. Al Tabarani says:
ﺑﻜﺖ ﻭ ﻓﺎﺳﺘﺮﺟﻌﺖ ﺻﺪﺭﻫﺎ ﻋﻠﻲ ﺻﺪﺭﻩ ﻓﻮﺿﻊ ﻋﺒﺪﺍﻟﻤﻄﻠﺐ ﺑﻨﺖ ًْﻓﻠﻤﺎ ﺻﻔﻴﻪ ﻋﻠﻲ ﻭﺧﺎﻑ ﺷﻬﻖ. ﺑﻜﻲ ﺟﺜﺘﻪ ﺭﺍﻱ " ,
"When the Prophet saw Hamza's body he cried loudly and was hesitant of seeing Safiyah (Hamza's sister). He put his chest on Hamza's chest and read the verse Esterja and cried. "
Sh: Yes, yes that is correct.
Dr: There is more.
Sh: There is more?
Dr: Many more. For instance when Sad Ibn Muadh was martyred, the Prophet cried and said: for everyone to tell his story so they cry for him too. When Jafar and Zeyd passed away the Prophet cried and said that they were my brothers and close friends and talking companions.
In the interpretation of Ibn Kasir section 2, page 329 regarding crying Malik Ibn Anas said: to Sad Ibn Miad (Sa'ad Ibn Ma'az grandchild) that: I came upon Anas Ibn Malik and he asked who I was. I replied: I am Waaqid Ibn Saadbn Ma'az. He said: You look like him. Then he cried and said: may God bless his soul. Sa'ad was one of the greatest men and highly honored.
Sh: This is very interesting. There are so many cases.
Dr: I have one from Abubakr.
Sh: Please do so.
Dr: Ibn Kasir section 4, page 480. Musnad Ahmad section 4, page 362 and Bukhari section 4, page 463 and 2256 from Aisha's saying she claims: When the Prophet passed away Abubakr entered the Mosque came inside Aisha's house
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"ﻓﻜﺸﻒ ﺑﻜﻲ ﻭ ﻓﻘﺒﻠﻪ ﻋﻠﻴﻪ ﺍﻛﺐ ﺛﻢ ﺟﻬﻪ ﻋﻦ "
"He opened up to see the Prophet's face, places his head next to him and kissed him and cried."
Sh: Okay so we can agree that once someone is martyred or has died it is okay to cry. But what of crying after the person has died and buried and crying over the grave?
Dr: I have proof from the Prophet himself.
Sh: It seems that you have gathered all the evidences.
Dr: I have not gathered them. They are all in this software as soon as I type in the subject matter.
Sh: Please go ahead this is very good.
Dr: There are documents from the Quran such as the crying of Jacob or the crying of the Prophet which are all true.
Sh: That is correct. What about the crying after death? Jacob cried due to being separated from Joseph.
Dr: In Sunan Ibn Majah 1620 and Hakem in Almstdrick in the Mustadrak Al Sahiheyn 3250 says on behalf of Abdullah Ibn Masoud that the Prophet would look upon the graves and we were all with him. He then asked us to sit. He then cried loudly and the others joined him crying. We then saw Umar asking the Prophet the reason why he had cried and caused sadness for everyone else.
The Prophet said that: Was it my crying that made you cry? He replied yes. The Prophet said:
this grave that you see me crying upon is my mother's grave Aminah Bint Wahb.
Sh: Wow this is in Almstdrick?
Dr: Yes, please come and have a look. Can you see that the Prophet is crying over his mother's grave after fifty years?
Sh: This is correct. This is a very important case that our scholars have never mentioned. They haven't put these Hadith next to each other and talked to people about them.
Dr: Recently they have. For instance, look at this part of the software.
Albarzakh Thesis of Dr Sheikh section 1, page 190- 227 has done the same thing. However, Dr Alfatih Alhabr Umar Ahmad has also written a book called Hayat AlBarzakh in the Sihah Sittah which is a very interesting research and is written in my university. He proves that based on the Prophet's order, crying for a dead person is permitted.
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In addition there are more than 50 cases in the software of the same thing being mentioned for instance there is a section that Hoghogh Mostafa that says the same thing in section 6, page 41 that Fatawa Alazhar section 8, page 108, Bab Al Ziyarat Al Rasool.
Now the part regarding honoring the Prophet (s.a.w.a) grave, in Ibn Kabir section 2, page 21 in door of Hoghogh Al mostafa cites:
Malik Ibn Anas said: to Calipha Abu Jafar Mansour:
" ﺣﻴﺎً ﻛﺤﺮﻣﺘﻪ ﻣﻴﺘﺎ ﺣﺮﻣﺘﻪ ﻓﺎﻥّ ﻧﺒﻲ ﺻﻮﺕ ﻓﻮﻕ ﺻﻮﺗﻜﻢ ﻓﻌﻮ ﻻﺗﺮ "
"Do not raise your voice in front of the Prophet because his honor and respect is to be kept even when he is dead as when he is passed away he is as if he was alive" Abu jafar asked
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Sh: Dear Dr I accept that crying over a dead person is acceptable and that we could face the chamber when going to pilgrimage.
Dr: I am not saying this. It is all based on the sources in the books stored in my mobile. All I am trying to say is that for you to act just as your own books and Hadith's say, which by the way are not contradicting with what the Quran says.
Sh: And I am saying that I accept.
Dr: Now in continuation of the case please pay attention, Malik said: To Abu Jafar when you go to the Prophet's grave to ask for forgiveness. Meaning you can go to a dead person asking refuge.
Sh: Yes, that is correct. That was a very important content. To tell you the truth us scholars have never referred to these books and have not been paying attention to them. We just go by with what has been said: Around without referring to its source and its validity.
Dr: Well we have limited your job.
Sh: Yes, you are correct this is very good. May God bless you.
Dr: Please look, Samhoodi says in Vafa Al Vafa, page 1361: Hafiz Abu Abdulla Mohammad Ibn Musa Ibn Al Numan said: based on a source from Ali Ibn Abitaleb a.s that three days had passed from burying the Prophet (s.a.w.a) that an Arab came from a trip outside of Medina. He placed the Prophet's grave soil on his head and said:
" ﺍﻧﻔﺴﻬﻢ ﻇﻠﻤﻮﺍ ﺍﺫ ﺍﻧﻬﻢ ﻭﻟﻮ ﻋﻠﻴﻚ ﺍﻧﺰﻝ ﻓﻴﻤﺎ ﻛﺎﻥ ﻭ ﻋﻨﻚ ﻋﻴﻨﺎ ﻭ ﻣﺎ ﺳﺒﺤﺎﻧﻪ ﺍﷲ ﻋﻦ ﻭﻋﻴﺖ ﻭ ﻗﻮﻟﻚ ﻓﺴﻤﻌﻨﺎ ﻗﻠﺖ ﺍﷲ ﺭﺳﻮﻝ ﻳﺎ ﻟﻲ ﺗﺴﺘﻐﻔﺮ ﻭﺟﺌﺘﻚ ﻇﻠﻤﺖ ﻗﺪ ﻭ ﻓﺎﺳﺘﻐﻔﺮﻭﺍﷲ ﺟﺎﻭﻙ "
"O Messenger of God, you told us and we heard you. You obtained from God what we obtained from you. From all the things that have been given to you there is this verse of the Quran: Whenever anyone has wronged to himself and then come to you and ask God for his forgiveness. You will ask forgiveness on your behalf. I have come to you so you could ask for my forgiveness and ..."
In the end of the book, Vafa Al vafa le Akhbar daar al mustafa, door number 8, the author has cited many events that provides evidence that asking forgiveness and pardon and asking for requests from the Prophet have all been a continuous repetitive action for the Muslims. He even writes: Imam Mohammad Ibn Musa Ibn Numan regarding a book named Mesbah Alzalem fi Al Mostaqisin Bekheyr al Anaam has said: the same thing.
Sh: It is very interesting that asking for forgiveness and pardon can still be continued to be asked after the person has passed away.
Dr: Yes, and this is the answer to those who say not to seek help from people that have passed away.
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At this moment some pistachio and Persian sweets on the table were offered to Sheikh and he took some. He pointed at the Persian sweets.
Sh: These are very delicious.
Dr: I am not sure about Egypt but they are not comparable to Syrian sweets.
Sh: Egypt has good sweets but they are not comparable to Syrian sweets.
Dr: Syrian and Lebanon sweets are extremely delicious to eat.
Sh: What was the sweet that I had? Gaz? It is very delicious. It does come close to Syrian sweets and it is less sweet. It is good for old folks like me. Syrian sweets are very sweet.
Blessing and Pleading to the Righteous Dead
Dr: Regarding pleading to the Prophet's grave (s.a.w.a) there are advocates that I could mention as well.
Sh: We do not permit blessing or pleading to the dead.
Dr: The Quran permits you to plead to the living and the best example is Joseph's shirt.
Sh: Yes, when the Prophet was living they would do blessings on the water that the Prophet would do ablution on. We do not have anything for the dead.
Dr: We do have cases after death too.
Sh: Where?
Dr: One very clear source is in Sobol al Hoda and Alreshad, section 12, page 347, ba'ab number 8. We also have another source in Sunan Darmi, section 1, page 56 and Ibn Jawzi section 12 page 357 from Abu Aljovza. He talks about pleading to the Prophet's honorable grave requesting for rain:
ﻋﺒﺪ ﺑﻦ ﺃﻭﺱ ﺍﻟﺠﻮﺯﺍء ﺃﺑﻮ ﺣﺪﺛﻨﺎ ﺍﻟﻨﻜﺮﻱ ﻣﺎﻟﻚ ﺑﻦ ﻋﻤﺮﻭ ﺛﻨﺎ ﺯﻳﺪ ﺑﻦ ﺳﻌﻴﺪ ﺛﻨﺎ ﺍﻟﻨﻌﻤﺎﻥ ﺃﺑﻮ ﺣﺪﺛﻨﺎ ـ ٢٩ ﻭ ﻋﻠﻴﻪ ﺍﷲ ﺻﻠﻰ ﺍﻟﻨﺒﻲ ﻗﺒﺮ ﺍﻧﻈﺮﻭﺍ ﻓﻘﺎﻟﺖ ﻋﺎﺋﺸﻪًْ ﺇﻟﻰ ﻓﺸﻜﻮﺍ ﺷﺪﻳﺪﺍ ﻗﺤﻄﺎ ﺍﻟﻤﺪﻳﻨﻪًْ ﺃﻫﻞ ﻗﺤﻂ : ﻗﺎﻝ ﺍﷲ ﺣﺘﻰ ﻣﻄﺮﺍ ﻓﻤﻄﺮﻧﺎ ﻓﻔﻌﻠﻮﺍ ﻗﺎﻝ ﺳﻘﻒ ﺍﻟﺴﻤﺎء ﻭﺑﻴﻦ ﺑﻴﻨﻪ ﻳﻜﻮﻥ ﻻ ﺣﺘﻰ ﺍﻟﺴﻤﺎء ﺇﻟﻰ ﻛﻮﻭﺍ ﻣﻨﻪ ﻓﺎﺟﻌﻠﻮﺍ ﺳﻠﻢ ﺍﻟﻔﺘﻖ ﻋﺎﻡ ﻓﺴﻤﻲ ﺍﻟﺸﺤﻢ ﻣﻦ ﺗﻔﺘﻘﺖ ﺣﺘﻰ ﺍﻹﺑﻞ ﻭﺳﻤﻨﺖ ﺍﻟﻌﺸﺐ ﻧﺒﺖ
" ﺛﻘﺎﺕ ﺭﺟﺎﻟﻪ ﺃﺳﺪ: ﺳﻠﻴﻢ ﺣﺴﻴﻦ ﻗﺎﻝ
"Aus Ibn Abdullah said: Medina was suffering from food and drought shortage and people were extremely deprived on resources so they complained to Aisha and Aisha said: to face the Prophet's (s.a.w.a) grave and to make a hole on the roof of the house where his grave buried was so there wouldn't be a gap between the grave and the sky. Aus Ibn Abdullah said: we did this and rain came upon us. There was so much rain that all the grasses
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became green, the camels became large and fattened so much so that they called that year the year of plenty. Hussain Salim said that they were sure of the Hadith."
Sh: This is very interesting, this pleading after the Prophet's death. This is a good example for what you are trying to prove.
Dr: Please look again. Hafiz, in the book of Fatho Al bary section 2, page 495 and Author Ibn Abi Shaybah section 12 pages 32 says:
" ﻓﻲ ﻗﺤﻂ ﺍﻟﻨﺎﺱ ﺃﺻﺎﺏ ﻗﺎﻝ ﻋﻤﺮ ﺧﺎﺯﻥ ﻭﻛﺎﻥ ﺍﻟﺪﺍﺭﻱ ﻣﺎﻟﻚ ﻋﻦ ﺍﻟﺴﻤﺎﻥ ﺻﺎﻟﺢ ﺃﺑﻲ ﺭﻭﺍﻳﻪًْ ﻣﻦ ﺻﺤﻴﺢ ﺑﺈﺳﻨﺎﺩ ﺷﻴﺒﻪًْ ﺃﺑﻲ ﺑﻦ ﺭﻭﻯ ﻓﻲ ﺍﻟﺮﺟﻞ ﻓﺄﺗﻰ ﻫﻠﻜﻮﺍ ﻗﺪ ﻓﺈﻧﻬﻢ ﻻﻣﺘﻚ ﺍﺳﺘﺴﻖ ﺍﷲ ﺭﺳﻮﻝ ﻳﺎ ﻓﻘﺎﻝ ﺳﻠﻢ ﻭ ﻋﻠﻴﻪ ﺍﷲ ﺻﻠﻰ ﺍﻟﻨﺒﻲ ﻗﺒﺮ ﺇﻟﻰ ﺭﺟﻞ ﻓﺠﺎء ﻋﻤﺮ ﺯﻣﻦ ﺃﺣﺪ ﺍﻟﻤﺰﻧﻲ ﺍﻟﺤﺎﺭﺙ ﺑﻦ ﺑﻼﻝ ﻫﻮ ﺍﻟﻤﺬﻛﻮﺭ ﺍﻟﻤﻨﺎﻡ ﺭﺃﻯ ﺍﻟﺬﻱ ﺃﻥ ﺍﻟﻔﺘﻮﺡ ﻓﻲ ﺳﻴﻒ ﺭﻭﻯ .....ﻭﻗﺪ ﺍﻟﺤﺪﻳﺚ ﻋﻤﺮ ﺍﺋﺖ ﻟﻪ ﻓﻘﻴﻞ ﺍﻟﻤﻨﺎﻡ ﺍﻟﺼﺤﺎﺑﻪْ
"Ibn Abi Shaybah with true documents from Abi Saleh Alsaman Malikdar that was the holder of Umar's warehouse says that in the time of Umar there happened to be shortage of food. A gentleman came upon the Prophet (s.a.w.a) grave and said: O' Messenger of God feed your Ummah as they are perishing. The Prophet came upon the gentleman when he was asleep and asked him to go to Umar and ...."
Sh: This is also very interesting.
Dr: Yes, so we did have pleading at the time of the Caliphas. Even though we believe that the Prophet's state is the same dead or alive.
Sh: That is correct. In Alazhar this kind of pleading is acceptable after death but I am educated from Saudi Arabia and accept these things rarely. In Egypt this is completely acceptable.
Dr: In the Quran, Surat Al Maidah "