THE DOCTOR AND THE SHEIKHS' DEBATE
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"The Prophet said: My friend, minister and Calipha after me and the best person that I leave after myself and he is in charge of my debt and to practice my legacy is Ali Ibn Abitaleb."
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Sh Usman: Yes, and the fact that we in such a night accepted that the Prophet chose Ali as his successor is also very interesting.
Dr Zohair: Sheikh Usman are you saying that you are done and you accept that Ali should have been the first Calipha?
Sh Usman: You were the one saying two days ago that the Doctor’s discussions were right and the true Islam was the School of Ahl al Bayt.
Dr Zohair: Yes, I said that. I completely accept but for me your acceptance was very interesting.
Sh Usman: Dear Sheikh Ibrahim what is your opinion?
Sh: To be honest from the first days I realized that our information regarding the true Islam was very limited. Mostly the information we have are chosen for us in a way that it can confirm the current cultural state in the Sunni countries. If from the beginning our religious scholars had gone back and looked at our own books they would have realised some good things, especially our researchers.
Dr Zohair: Are you saying that you also accept that the School of Ahl al Bayt is the true Islam?
Sh: If I say anything but this then I will have to admit to be doing wrong for sixty years. But I will not do that. What I mean to say is that I could never ignore reaching to such a clear truth in religion and then not accept it.
The Companions Remarks after Ali Started as Calipha
Dr: Now that you all accepted that Ali should have been the first successor after the Prophet it wouldn't be so bad if you saw in your own book of Tarikh Yaqubi, volume 1, page 178, how he governed as Calipha after twenty five years of delay when people showed their allegiance to him.
Some of the distinctive companions say these about him.
Sh: Let us see.
Dr: Here you are in my mobile programme:
ﺧﻄﻴﺐ ﻭﻛﺎﻥ ﺍﻷﻧﺼﺎﺭﻱ، ﺷﻤﺎﺱ ﺑﻦ ﻗﻴﺲ ﺑﻦ ﺛﺎﺑﺖ ﺗﻜﻠﻢ ﻣﻦ ﺃﻭﻝ ﻭﻛﺎﻥ ﻓﺘﻜﻠﻤﻮﺍ، ﺍﻷﻧﺼﺎﺭ ﻣﻦ ﻗﻮﻡ ﻭﻗﺎﻡ »
ﻛﺎﻧﻮﺍ ﻭﻟﺌﻦ ﺍﻟﺪﻳﻦ، ﻓﻲ ﺗﻘﺪﻣﻮﻙ ﻓﻤﺎ ﺍﻟﻮﻻﻳﻪًْ ﻓﻲ ﺗﻘﺪﻣﻮﻙ ﻛﺎﻧﻮﺍ ﻟﺌﻦ ﺃﻣﻴﺮﺍﻟﻤﺆﻣﻨﻴﻦ، ﻳﺎ ﻭﺍﷲ، ﻓﻘﺎﻝ: ﺍﻷﻧﺼﺎﺭ، ﻻ ﻓﻴﻤﺎ ﺇﻟﻴﻚ ﻳﺤﺘﺎﺟﻮﻥ ﻣﻜﺎﻧﻚ، ﻳﺠﻬﻞ ﻭﻻ ﻣﻮﺿﻌﻚ، ﻳﺨﻔﻰ ﻻ ﻭﻛﻨﺖ ﻛﺎﻧﻮﺍ ﻭﻟﻘﺪ ﺍﻟﻴﻮﻡ، ﻟﺤﻘﺘﻬﻢ ﻓﻘﺪ ﺃﻣﺲ ﺳﺒﻘﻮﻙ « ﻋﻠﻤﻚ. ﻣﻊ ﺃﺣﺪ ﺇﻟﻰ ﺍﺣﺘﺠﺖ ﻭﻣﺎ ﻳﻌﻠﻤﻮﻥ، "And a group of the supporters stood up and began to talk. The first person to speak was Sabet Ibn Qeys Shamas Ansari. He was the spokesperson for the supporters. He said: I swear to God that O Commander of the Faithful, if they went ahead in ruling people they didn't fall ahead of you in religion and if they passed you yesterday you caught up to them
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today. As they were there you were also there and you never hid your agenda and never hid where you were. They didn't know that they needed you in the times that they didn't know and you never needed anyone because of you being so wise."
ﻫﺬﺍ ﻷﻣﺮﻧﺎ ﺃﺻﺒﻨﺎ ﻣﺎ ﺃﻣﻴﺮﺍﻟﻤﺆﻣﻨﻴﻦ! ﻳﺎ ﻓﻘﺎﻝ: ﺍﻟﺸﻬﺎﺩﺗﻴﻦ، ﺫﻭ ﻭﻫﻮ ﺍﻷﻧﺼﺎﺭﻱ، ﺛﺎﺑﺖ ﺑﻦ ًْﺛﻢ ﺧﺰﻳﻤﻪ ﻗﺎﻡ ù ﺑﺎﷲ، ﺍﻟﻨﺎﺱ ﻭﺃﻋﻠﻢ ﺇﻳﻤﺎﻧﺎً، ﺍﻟﻨﺎﺱ ﺃﻗﺪﻡ ﻓﻸﻧﺖ ﻓﻴﻚ، ﺃﻧﻔﺴﻨﺎ ﺻﺪﻗﻨﺎ ﻭﻟﺌﻦ ﺇﻟﻴﻚ، ﺇﻻ ﺍﻟﻤﻨﻘﻠﺐ ﻛﺎﻥ ﻭﻻ ﻏﻴﺮﻙ، « ﻟﻚ. ﻣﺎ ﻟﻬﻢ ﻭﻟﻴﺲ ﻟﻬﻢ، ﻣﺎ ﻟﻚ ﺍﷲ، ﺑﺮﺳﻮﻝ ﺍﻟﻤﺆﻣﻨﻴﻦ ﻭﺃﻭﻟﻰ ''Then Khazima Ibn Sabet Ansari Zoo Shahadateyn rose and said: O Commander of the Faithful, we didn't want anyone else but you in this affair and there is no one more revolutionary than you and if we wanted to speak honestly about you we then have to say that you are above every person in belief and above everyone wiser to God and closer to the Prophet. Even though they (previous Caliphas) had what you have but what you have they don't"
ﻭﻣﺎ ﻭﺭﻓﻌﺘﻬﺎ ﺯﺍﻧﺘﻚ، ﻭﻣﺎ ﺍﻟﺨﻼﻓﻪًْ ﺯﻳﻨﺖ ﻟﻘﺪ ﺃﻣﻴﺮﺍﻟﻤﺆﻣﻨﻴﻦ، ﻳﺎ ﻭﺍﷲ، ﻓﻘﺎﻝ: ﺻﻮﺣﺎﻥ ﺑﻦ ًْﻭﻗﺎﻡ ﺻﻌﺼﻌﻪ »
« ﺇﻟﻴﻬﺎ. ﻣﻨﻚ ﺃﺣﻮﺝ ﺇﻟﻴﻚ ﻭﻟﻬﻲ ﺭﻓﻌﺘﻚ،
"Sa'sa'a Ibn Savahan stood and said: I swear to God O Commander of the Faithful, you have graced being a Calipha and it didn't grace you. You have raised it but it didn't raise you. And it is more dependent on you than you on it"
ﺍﻟﻌﻈﻴﻢ ﺍﻷﻧﺒﻴﺎء، ﻋﻠﻢ ﻭﻭﺍﺭﺙ ﺍﻷﻭﺻﻴﺎء، ﻭﺻﻲ ﻫﺬﺍ ﺍﻟﻨﺎﺱ، ﺃﻳﻬﺎ ﻓﻘﺎﻝ: ﺍﻷﺷﺘﺮ ﺍﻟﺤﺎﺭﺙ ﺑﻦ ﻣﺎﻟﻚ ﻗﺎﻡ »ﺛﻢ ﻓﻴﻪ ﻛﻤﻠﺖ ﻣﻦ ﺍﻟﺮﺿﻮﺍﻥ. ﺑﺠﻨﻪًْ ﻭﺭﺳﻮﻟﻪ ﺑﺎﻹﻳﻤﺎﻥ، ﺍﷲ ﻛﺘﺎﺏ ﻟﻪ ﺷﻬﺪ ﺍﻟﺬﻱ ﺍﻟﻐﻨﺎء، ﺍﻟﺤﺴﻦ ﺍﻟﺒﻼء، « ﺍﻷﻭﺍﺋﻞ. ﻭﻻ ﺍﻷﻭﺍﺧﺮ، ﻭﻓﻀﻠﻪ ﻭﻋﻠﻤﻪ ﺳﺎﺑﻘﺘﻪ ﻓﻲ ﻳﺸﻚ ﻭﻟﻢ ﺍﻟﻔﻀﺎﺋﻞ، "Then Malek Ibn Hares Ashtar rose and said: O people here is the trustee of the trustees and the heir of the Prophets wisdom and the greatest in passing all trials and is needlessly so beautiful that the book of God has testified to his faith and his Prophet has testified for him to heaven. He is someone that all of the virtues have completed in him and others from first to last cannot come close to his experience, wisdom and virtues."
ﻻ ﺍﻟѧﺬﻱ ﺪﻯ ﺍﻟﻬѧ ﻭﺍﻹﻣѧﺎﻡ ﺍﻟﺮﺿѧﻮﺍﻥ، ﻛﺒﻴﻌѧﻪًْ ﻭﺑﻴﻌѧﻪًْ ﺍﻟﻌﻘﺒѧﻪًْ ﻛﻴѧﻮﻡ ﻳѧﻮﻡ ﻟﻪ ﻣﻦ ﻓﻘﺎﻝ: ﻋﻤﺮﻭ ﺑﻦ ًْﺛﻢ ﻋﻘﺒﻪ ﻗﺎﻡ »
« ﺟﻬﻠﻪ ﻳﺨﺎﻑ ﻻ ﺍﻟﺬﻱ ﻭﺍﻟﻌﺎﻟﻢ ﺟﻮﺭﻩ، ﻳﺨﺎﻑ
"Then Iqba Ibn Amr rose and said: Who else do we have that can be better than the day of Aqabah or can show allegiance better than the Rezvan or be a guiding Imam that there is no fear in his injustice or so wise that no one is scared of his lack of knowledge (he knows everything)"
Sh: These are incredible testimonials.
Dr Zohair: We now understand what is Islam? Who is the Calipha? and who are the Ahl al Bayt.
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Sh: Just like me.
Dr: I think that our debate is at its end.
Why Is the Imam not Mentioned as Calipha In the Quran?
Before I finish our discussion I wanted to add something that most Wahabi’s find troublesome.
They say that if the Imam was important then why has the Quran not mentioned anything about the Prophet's Calipha?
Sh: Yes, I had heard about it before.
Dr: The response is in the speech of Ghadir.
Sh: How come?
Dr: In the speech of Ghadir we talk about "Velayat" (Guardianship) not "Imamat" (Supreme leadership).
Sh: What do you mean?
Dr: It means that God and his Prophet have Velayat over us therefore the successor of the Prophet has Velayat over the people. Imamat is the job of a rector but Velayat has admissibility and guardianship. Even though we have Imamat in Quran regarding Ibrahim but that particular Imamat is even higher valued than some of the Prophets.
Sh: That is an interesting point.
Dr: Yes, in the culture of Quran and School of Ahl al Bayt we have something called the "Vali Amr", "Master of affairs” but it is not like an Imam. For people to not confuse Imam with Calipha in the Shia culture this has been spread or else the main path is Velayat. Surat Al Maida, verse 55 is one of the historical subjects for the Imamat affair. We have a Vali, that whilst prostrating would do "Zakat" (Legal Alms).
Sh: But you do not recognise the Prophet's Caliphas to be Vali.
Dr: We know the Caliphas to be the twelve Prophet's Shia Imams so for them to not get confused with the Caliphas that we were discussing we use the word Imams instead. Of course it is also said to be like this in the Speech of Ghadir.
Sh: Some say that the Shia’s consider the Imams to be higher valued than the Prophet because they say that Imamat was given to Ibrahim after he was assigned as the Prophet.
Dr: Just like I said before if the Imamat is in the same content as Velayat then it is considered in the same lines as the Prophet's Velayat and the God's Velayat but it is not higher valued than that. Ibrahim's Imamat was higher than his Prophecy.
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Sh: The word Vali is used less than Imam in Shia'sm.
Dr: Imam has also meant someone that is a pioneer in going to war with deviation. But we consider them as Vali Amr in action and they are mostly called Imams amongst Shia people. The scholars debate that the Imam in action is more discussed and currently in Iran we have Ruling Jurists (Vali Faqih) and we say he is Vali Amr. Imam can also be a slang term.
Sh: That is very interesting.
Dr: Thank the Lord for this blessing.
Sh: Thank the Lord it had a good outcome.
Sh Usman: Thank the Lord for giving us a good reward in this trip to Hajj.
Dr Zohair: Our poor fathers that thought that they were acting based on the true Islam in the world.
Sh: But the Quran tells us not to follow our fathers and their fathers' religion if they are wrong.
Sh Usman: The Quran reproaches people that say we will not go against our fathers and their father's religion.
Dr: Yes, Quran says in Surat Al Maida, Verse 104 that the infidels said:
"And when it is said to them, "Come to what Allah has revealed and to the Messenger,"
they say, "Sufficient for us is that upon which we found our fathers." Even though their fathers knew nothing, nor were they guided?"
Or in Surat Ibrahim, verse number 10 says:
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"But those who disbelieve and deny our signs - those are the companions of Hellfire."
In Surat Az-Zukhruf, verse number 22 says:
"Rather, they say, "Indeed, we found our fathers upon a religion, and we are in their footsteps [rightly] guided."
In Surat Luqman, verse number 21 says:
And when it is said to them, "Follow what Allah has revealed," they say, "Rather, we will follow that upon which we found our fathers." Even if Satan was inviting them to the punishment of the hellfire?"
Dr Zohair: We are not saying that we wish to follow our fathers. There is no reason why should we follow the ways that were wrong.
Sh Usman: If we do such a thing then just as these verses are telling us we are no more than infidels. The Quran is saying that only infidels say such a thing.
Dr Zohair: Now what shall we do with all the mistakes we made by following the School of Caliphas?
Dr: I know something that might help.
Sh: Please go ahead.
Dr: You are only moving from one sect to another like from Hanbali to Shafia.
Dr Zohair: When we have not been acting as the Prophet has been telling us. What kind of Muslim are we? It is as if we have now become Muslim. I believe that the other religions are not
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in the path of Islam and it is not as if we have moved from the Hanbali religion to the Shafia religion. We have moved from the distorted Islam to the true Islam.
Dr: But from the order of Quran, whoever says his Shahadateyn (Credo of the Islamic faith) then we know him as a Muslim.
Sh: He is just a Muslim it does not mean that he is a believer to all Islam.
ﺑِﺒَﻌْﺾø ٍﻧُﺆْﻣِﻦُ ﻧَﻜْﻔُﺮُ ﻭَ ﺑِﺒَﻌْﺾٍ ù
"We believe in some and disbelieve in others"
Dr Zohair: In reality we had problems with after the Prophet and as the Doctor said, they were not part of Islam.
Dr: Of course choosing the Calipha that the Prophet assigned for us is part of Islam but not accepting a Calipha that people have chosen is not part of Islam. If you remember Mufti Alazhar, Dr Ahmad Tayeb says that agreeing with Abubakr and Umar is not part of Islam, for it to be a problem is someone was against it.
Dr Zohair: How do you know Ahmad Tayeb?
Sh: Mufti Alazhar knows us as well.
Dr Zohair: From where?
Dr: Yes, I know him. We have even spoken on the phone once.
Dr Zohair: Where did Ahmad Tayeb say that agreeing or not agreeing with Abubakr and Umar is not part of religion?
Dr: It was being broadcasted once in one of the Egyptian programs on television that was being streamed on our satellite. Dr Tayeb spoke for eight sessions regarding the differences between the Shia and Sunni.
Sh Usman: What was he saying?
Dr: He was saying that based on the Fitwa that was given fifty years ago by Sheikh Shaltut, the Mufti of the time in Alazhar: Shia'sm is one of the Islamic Schools just like the four other official schools. He said that all of the rumors regarding Shia'sm are a lie.
Dr Zohair: Did he mention that accepting Abubakr and Umar is not part of Islam, in the same program?
Dr: Yes. The interviewer asked him many of the youth in Egypt have gone towards Shia'sm. Is their Islam correct? Dr Tayeb responded: Yes, it is correct. Then the interviewer asked: But the
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Shia’s do not agree with Abubakr, Umar and Usman. Dr Tayeb said: Are accepting the Caliphas as part of our beliefs?
Dr Zohair: This means that he agreed with Shia'sm.
Dr: Yes, he was saying that Shia'sm is part of the fifth School of Islam. The interviewer even asked: How is marrying one of them allowed? Dr Tayeb said: It is as if you are marrying from another School of religion.
Dr Zohair: Now that I have accepted the School of Ahl al Bayt. It is going to be difficult for me to learn their Fiqh. I need to marry a Shia.
Dr: Thankfully, the School of Ahl al Bayt has spread so much in the world that you can have all of its provisions available to you easily.
Sh Usman: Where can we buy the books of Fiqh from?
Dr: As I said before it can be found in Egypt as well. You can also try accessing over a thousand Shia sites and information on School of Ahl Al Bayt before even trying to find books. You can find all of the Fiqh provisions from there.
Dr Zohair: But I prefer to get a Shia wife so she could teach me everything.
Sh: I would like to ask the Doctor to keep in touch with us so we could contact him with any questions we may have. This is because some of the contents may be in Persian language.
Dr: In the past twenty years the School of Ahl al Bayt has really spread in the world. From the survey I have from the Muslim Scholars Council which is run by Doctor Qarzavi from Qatar; I heard that Muslim countries such as Indonesia or Nigeria that have had no Shia have now, thirty million and twenty million respectively. In other countries the trend is also rising. This was confirmed by the Iranian representative that was in the council. Therefore the jurisprudential books for them are available in their languages.
Sh: Is it really growing that fast?
Dr: Yes, very much. Thank the Lord after the revolution of Islamic Iran a positive message spread and after the war of 2006 between Lebanon and Israel, the School of Ahl al Bayt has been very eye catching in Arabian countries especially Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Turkey and African countries.
Dr Zohair: They must have had a Doctor like you to guide them.
Dr: They don't have people like Sheikh Ibrahim or Sheikh Usman that know so much of the details of the School of Ahl al Bayt. I have seen people that have converted just by talking to them for a brief couple of sessions in my various trips of Mecca. Just by answering very simple and logical questions they have started to follow the School of Ahl al Bayt.
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Dr Zohair: The Doctor is right. For instance, after observing some of your sessions and listening to what he had to say I realized how logical and informative he was. That is why it has been a couple of days since I have understood that the School of Ahl al Bayt is the true Islam.
Sh: Dear Doctor Zohair is mustn't be that problematic to accept the truth so speedily. But for people like me and Sheikh Usman it is not just acceptable to agree with it we have to answer back to people in Alazhar and tell them why we have chosen the Ahl al Bayt over the Caliphate.
Or else, it was very clear to me in the beginning of the days that the School of Ahl al Bayt was the right one. But after asking many questions I went into depth for it to be clear for me and now I have all of my questions answered.
Sh Usman: Unfortunately, I was not there at the beginning of your discussion and I have lost many of the information that was talked about.
Sh: In the session that we were at Sheikh Hamid Najdi, Doctor used our own Hadith's and showed us that our Wudu, call for prayer, Hamd and Surah, Tashahod and etc... were all wrong.
He basically questioned all of our ways that we pray and Sheikh Hamid had nothing to say and almost agreed to everything the Doctor said.
Sh Usman: A wise person would never object or disagree with anything that is analytically logical not only regarding religion but even in life.
Sh: Now, if we go back and look at the previous discussion and all of the cases that have been talked about there is not one question that the School of Ahl al Bayt cannot answer. Whereas in our School or better say, as the Doctor says, School of Caliphates, there are thousands of questions that we hear "No" as an answer to it. Even our greatest scholars cannot answer to them.
Now in School of Ahl al Bayt, a person that is specialised as a Mechanical Engineer has this much information. That is, in my opinion, the reason because there information is so logical and straightforward.
Sh Usman: Yes, I agree. If you realised, Sheikh Ibrahim and I were weak at the parts where the debate was logical and straightforward.
Dr: I did also bring up Hadith's and citations from your own books and the Quran.
Sh: But just like you had said, your discussions were much organised like one, two, and three.
Dr: I am not that knowledgeable regarding my religious affairs. I only know enough to defend my religion and beliefs. If you have accepted the School of Ahl al Bayt after a month of discussing it, with the truth seeking personalities that you all have, I am sure that if you had come to a religious clerk you would have accepted it in one or two days.
Sh Usman: But we do not have access to many books regarding information on the Ahl al Bayt.
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Dr: That is not a problem if you wish we could go to the Iranian cultural exchange of Hajj. There are plenty books and CD’s there that you could buy and have for now and then you can buy more from Egypt and Lebanon. God willing, you can buy books for School of Ahl al Bayt there.
Sh: What about from Iran?
Dr: If the relationship between Egypt and Iran became better than I would love to send you books.
Sh: So let us go at ten O'clock in the morning tomorrow to the Iranian cultural exchange book store.
Dr: God willing, ten in the morning tomorrow to this address....We shall go and you can buy many books and CD’s.
Sh: Inevitably our last expression is: " ﺍﻟﻌﺎﻟﻤﻴﻦ ﺭﺏ ﺍﻟﺤﻤﺪﷲ "ﺩﻋﻮﺍﻧﺎ
This book was written
and completed on the twenty
First of Ramadan,
The Anniversary of the Martyrdom of Imam Ali.