THE DOCTOR AND THE SHEIKHS' DEBATE
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Jamal Ahmad: They have government funds and they receive a yearly fund for different sections.
Dr: What is the role of these religious leaders in running the country?
Jamal Ahmad: They have no role in running the country they have rights in education the religious side of people and people follow them for their religious needs.
Dr: They must also get paid for not interfering in the political side of things on a yearly basis.
Sh: That is not the case. The clerks themselves do not wish to interfere with politics. That is because they don't class it in their rank of being a religious leader or a scholar in religion. In politics there are lies, deceits, accusations, back stabbing, murder, bribery and basically changing justice to injustice and ... therefore, it is better for the scholars to not have to deal with it.
Dr: Maybe then that is the reason why as soon as you talk to a religious scholars they listen very carefully but as when you start talking about politics, like talk about Israel and America and ...they instantly say that it is Hajj season and that it is the season of God. Interfering in the politics is not what we do.
Sh: This topic is true but I must add that there are some that do like to interfere with politics but are scared and prefer a life of calmness compared to a hectic political life.
Dr: We, followers of the Ahl al Bayt's faith believe that if interfering in politics and guiding people's life and running the government is a mistake then this mistake (We seek refuge in God ( ﺑﺎﷲstarted ))ﻧﻌﻮﺫ from God and his Prophets.
Sh: Why do you say that it started with God and his Prophet?
Dr: I say this because God told Noah to go and guide the people. God told Ibrahim to go and free people from Namrud. God told Moses to go and free people from Pharaoh. God told Jesus to go and free people from the Jews.
Sh: But God didn't say go govern the country. He said: Go guide the people.
Dr: If it was just guidance then why did God kill all those that did not listen to what Noah was trying to tell them? He turned the people of Loot upside down. He drowned the people of Pharaoh so the people of Israel would listen to the words of wisdom of Moses. He saved Ibrahim from the fire so that people would listen to what was saying. They tortured Jesus so much because he was advising people in their lives. They kicked the Prophet out because of all the advice he was giving the people of Mecca.
Sh: The Quran says " "ﺍﻧﺬﺭwhich means warn and advising is warning.
Dr: Where did God ask Moses to warn? He said:
ﻃَﻐﻰ ﺇِﻧﱠﻪُ ﻓِﺮْﻋَﻮْﻥَ ﺇِﻟﻰ ﺍﺫْﻫَﺐْ
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"Go to Pharaoh. Indeed, he has transgressed"
This means that God interferes with the government. He wanted to take away the government from the people of Pharaoh.
Sh: Well we say that there was no such thing in Islam. A good Mumen is one that guides its people. If they did not accept then the Quran says:
ِ ﺍﻟﺪﱢﻳﻦ ﻓِﻲ ﺇِﻛْﺮﺍﻩَ ﻻ
"There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion"
Dr: Based on this interpretation and assumption then the Prophet himself made a big mistake (We seek refuge in God (
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Dr: The British monarchy wrote a letter to the Egyptian rulers a few centuries ago so they would teach their children education. Now you go to England to educate yourself.
Dr Zohair: I did not understand in the end whether it is good for Islam to interfere in government or not.
Sh: We did not order anything strictly.
Dr: Then where did this discussion start from. If every Muslim was to do its own business, then what were we doing in Spain? What were we doing in Iran, Egypt and Sudan? They were not Arabs then.
Dr Zohair: Dear Sheikh Ibrahim, it is better for you to answer Sheikh, I have nothing more to say.
Sh: We say that the times have changed. I mean to say that in the time of the Prophet, he and the Caliphas were ruling but now the world has changed in a way as though politics have been corrupted by everything that is immoral and it is best for the religious leaders to stay away from it.
Dr: Why do you think, in your opinion, the scholars and politicians of the Islamic countries agree with the leaders of the United States in saying that religion should be separated from politics?
They don't really care about the Mumenins or the immorality of politics.
Dr Zohair: Due to the speciality of the field and the fact the there was no law and order before.
There were no groups or parties or factions and now politics is science and the politicians cannot operate on the same level with a religious scholar.
Dr Amr Moosa: No, they do sit with each other and are on the same level however, the religious scholars and leaders of religion are just like the pope or the great Religious Jurists of other countries, they are mostly in agreement with the politicians and leaders of the government. In other words, the religious leaders are not commanders but they take command.
Dr: God bless you. Then they interfere with politics but in the bad part of it such as agreeing with cruelty, agreeing with corruption in the government and agreeing with killing and blood shedding of Mujahid (worrier for the faith) people.
Sh: Of course this does not apply to all religious scholars.
Dr: Of course that is right. That is because religious scholars would abide by your suggestion and stay well away from politics and the ones that do, make a big mistake. I mean the part where they are in an agreement with the cruelty of the politicians.
Dr Amr Moosa: When religion interferes with politics it takes away that freedom and limits it.
For example: The Egyptian brotherhood (Ikhvan Al Muslimin) wanted to devaluate the role of
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the Jamal Abdul Naser's role and position so they tortured him so much so that he was forced to kill their leader, Hasan Al Bana'.
Dr: In fact this proves the debate we are having here. Politicians cannot tolerate religious leaders unless they are in agreement with them. Jamal Abdul Naser was a great man and great people make great mistakes. In my opinion, killing Hasan Al Bana' was a big mistake.
Dr Amr Moosa: Yes, if he was in disagreement with him then he should have just put him in jail.
Dr Zohair: Well if he was jailed then his supporters would have caused a riot.
Sh: Their beliefs seem a little distant from the real Islam. It sounds like Marxism.
Dr: First of all what they believed in is not close to Communism. Secondly, were their beliefs so different to some of the Jamal Abdul Naser's deputys from Islam? Did they not kill hundreds and thousands of Egyptian and Palestinian Muslims after him?
Sh: The people who worked with Jamal at the time were not like that and changed afterwards.
Dr: That is a possibility but one could also say that Jamal Abdul Naser did not also see the truth.
Dr Zohair: At that time we must not forget, there was no allowance of interference of religious scholars in politics and governing at all.
Dr: Do they accept such a thing now? Even now most countries do not allow religious scholars to interfere with any discussions regarding the country.
Dr Amr Moosa: It has gotten a bit better now. What I mean to say is that at least the leaders of the governments are a little scared of the religious leaders.
Dr: They are just scared though and not from all of them but just the real scholars. They buy and sit aside the one that only have the appearance of a religious leader.
Sh: Let's return to the question about whether religious leaders should interfere or not. If they interfere then we say they have been bought if they don't we say they are apart from the real Islam.
Dr: Scholars should take the government into their own hands and not be the advisors of oppressed and oppressors. How was it when in the time of the Prophet? The Muslims did not have a separate governing leader or city leader besides the religious system the Prophet had?
Sh: The Prophet was different. He was a ruler in every aspect.
Dr: What about the Caliphas after him? There were four Caliphas that ruled after him.
Sh: Yes they did.
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Dr: Do you mean to say that besides them they had a separate system governing?
Sh: No, but they were different too. They were four of the closest companions to the Prophet.
Dr: So your suggestion is that we not only do not follow the way the Prophet was but we also do not follow the way his Caliphas. So whom do we listen to? Bani Umayyah and Bani Abbas said that the government should do its own thing and the companions, scholars, narrators and reciters should follow their own way.
Sh: No, that wouldn't be right.
Dr: If the Prophet was among us now, which governing system do you think he would accept in your opinion? Would you agree with the governing system that Iran has or the governing system of the Arabian countries? The Iranian government that is run by a Mujtahid and rules the country based on the rules of Islam or the Arabian government that have nothing to do with Islam and the religious leaders are sitting on the sidelines?
Dr Zohair: I don't know about Iran but he would not agree with the Arabian government.
Dr Amr Moosa: This Iran has acted like Ali did at the time of his ruling as Calipha. It has created conflict between everyone.
Dr: What has Iran done? What was Ali doing?
Dr Amr Moosa: At the time of Umar and Abubakr the Islamic world was spreading but at the time of Ali there were mostly civil wars between the Muslims.
Dr: First of all, the problems within started from Usman not Ali. At the time of Umar and Abubakr the problems was mostly about Calipha and Ahl al Bayt and no one else was disagreeing much. Therefore, they managed to conquest but once that was done and the estate of Kasra and Qeysar got mixed up with the Islamic Beytol Mal (treasury), the disagreements started.
Sh: How come the treasury that was around at the time of Umar did not cause any problem.
Dr: Yes, Umar was at least keeping up with the appearance of being fair but the children of the first Calipha, Muhammad Ibn Abibakr and the old friends of the third Calipha that were companions were complaining about the third Calipha.
Sh: Some of the companions were also complaining about Ali too.
Dr: Yes, but they were complaining at Usman because he was splurging and complaining that Ali was being so precise on dividing the treasury and was not spending it or just giving it away.
Dr Zohair: Sheikh Ibrahim please agree that based on the explanations that were given Islam wishes to take over running the government and a country should be run by a leader and judge
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that is a scholar of Islam. In the Arabian countries the governing system that is being run is not based on Islam.
Dr Amr Moosa: Yes, for instance many of the countries do not ask the people's opinions on whom to be the king or Amir of the country. For instance we see that for many years one family is governing the country as monarchy without their position being evaluated to see if they even have the highest priority to be where they are. Just because their father or grandfather was the king they are given the rank of being king.
Sh: England is the same so it is wrong.
Dr: We are talking about an Islamic country not a Christian one in the west. Yes, it is right to say that the way England is running its government is wrong too even though the Prime Minister is chosen by the people and is the one running the show.
Dr Amr Moosa: So Sheikh Ibrahim do you agree that the Prophet and the Caliphas demonstrated that they wished to run the government and be in charge. So we better not say that politics should be separated from Islam and that we shouldn't interfere with it and consider it as sin to do so.
Sh: In my opinion the current situation is very different to when the Prophet and the Caliphas were around.
Dr: Tell me what difference does it have?
Sh: All the equipment supporting social media such as internet, satellite, mobiles, computers and...
Dr: These are equipments that instead of being useful for the governing systems that are nonreligious and ruthless, they should be used for the religious governments.
Dr Zohair: That is right. These are equipment that the modern world has made so they can strengthen their governments and to be able to control people better or to train people's thoughts to their own desires.
Dr: In fact that is the exact reason why it is good for the religious governments because they can use these exact devices to spread information to the world.
Dr Amr Moosa: But there are so many sites and cables that are spreading immorality that even if anyone wished to use websites or cables to watch religious things they would stop on the way to see these other sites and will stay there instead.
Dr: Actually people that are searching for religious sites and channels would not stop by these other channels. They would in fact filter the ones that are useless to them.
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Dr Amr Moosa: I will not lie and say that every time I wish to look for news or something on the internet I stumble on these other channels and websites and stay on them.
Dr Zohair: Dr Amr Moosa separated from his wife and children after twenty years. His wife left him for a British man that was disabled and married him instead therefore; he does not have anyone and spends time on these websites.
Dr: So the accomplishment of living in the west with one's family is to end up alone after 20 years of marriage.
Dr Amr Moosa: We moved from Egypt to England to live a better life in the west. Unfortunately my life, just like many others got torn apart. Now it is me and my cigar and a triangle of repetitive places I go to, house, hospital, and park.
Dr: Really that is what it comes to.
Dr Amr Moosa: I wake up in the morning go to the hospital until 6pm, then I go to the park and walk for half an hour and come home to have a simple dinner. I smoke some cigars and then after a couple of hours I get busy on the internet and cable. This is the result of all of the studying I did and spent all my youth to get a degree and make a family.
Dr: What if you had stayed in Egypt?
Dr Amr Moosa: I would have had a family, kept my dignity and in other words had a highly regarded life. In England we were regarded as lower, second or third class even.
Dr: Does the thought of being second or third not bother you?
Dr Amr Moosa: It upsets me but I have gotten used to it now.
Dr: Used to hardship or being sad?
Dr Amr Moosa: To both.
Sh: I studied in Saudi Arabia for a while and they didn't consider me highly regarded either.
Once you are looked at like this in an Islamic country then it is very clear how you are viewed in England.
Dr: That is right I have heard that there is racial discrimination in Saudi Arabia.
Sh: Where we are now is if a religious scholar, professor or Imam is from Saudi Arabia they are considered different to someone who is from Pakistan, Afghanistan, Syria and even Egypt.
Dr: What differences for instance?
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Sh: He will have less of a chance in achieving a higher University or Hoaza (circle for religious studies). They even have them appear less on social media than the others.
Dr: Well it wouldn't be so far from reality because based on the religion on this country. The other Muslims are considered Infidels and they are the only Muslims.
Sh: They mostly consider the Shias to be infidels as they do things that are against their beliefs.
They also consider the Sunni's that follow the rules of Salafies to be infidels.
Dr: That is not true. I have seen that anyone that has a book in their hands is considered an infidel. Anyone reading a supplication is an infidel. Anyone that touches the chamber of the Prophet is considered an infidel.
Sh: Well mostly Shias do these things.
Dr Zohair: Dear Sheikh we go to Egypt to Zeynabiyah, Ra'asol Hussein, Seyedeh Nafisah and we touch, kiss the shrines and no one complains. But here whenever I touch the pulpit of the Prophet, the Sheikh guarding it was close to chopping my hand off and then called me an infidel, this is wood infidel. Therefore, they do class us who Shafeii and Egyptian as infidels too.
Dr: Do you see that the Shias are not the only ones that are considered as infidels. Shafeii, Maleki, Hanafi and even Hanbalis' that are not Wahabis are all infidels.
Sh: Let's change the topic.
Dr: Does the way they think or the way they treat other Muslims upset you?
Sh: I am upset with both. It upsets me to see some consider their faith to be the only centre of righteousness.
Dr: It is clear. In Quran we have a verse saying:
َ ﻓَﺮِﺣُﻮﻥ ﻟَﺪَﻳْﻬِﻢْ ﺑِﻤﺎ ﺣِﺰْﺏٍ ﻛُﻞﱡ
"And each group is content with what has been given to them"
Sh: It is absolutely wrong to name the people that declare their faith to be infidels.
Dr: Praise the Lord that's all I wanted.
Dr Zohair: Let's go back to our discussion regarding government. Sheikh Ibrahim, do you now accept that Islam's intention is to rule?
Sh: Well after the discussion we had regarding the way the Prophet and the Caliphas were I do not have anything to say.
Dr: Until recently any Muslim anywhere has been ruling.
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Sh: Where have they ruled? What do you mean by saying recently?
Dr: This Government of Usmani, until Saudi Arabia was managed by it.
Sh: I accept that Islam is not separated from politics.
Dr: No the point isn't for you to accept that Islam is not separated from politics. If you pay a little attention to the verses of the Quran it becomes clear that there is way more than that. A political Imam in Iran after seventy years being the leader of the parliament will also say that our politics are the same as our Islam and my religion is my politics.
Sh: Now that we accepted that Islam is not separate from religion he says that religion is in fact politics.
Dr: I will not persist anymore if you just accept this one thing. Leave this last part to myself then.
I have to say though that if religion is not separated from politics then they would be both impregnated.
Dr Zohair: If you pay attention you see that wherever a country is governed by having religion as its source it is successful for instance compare Gaza to the Fat-h. The Fat-h did not have a religious source. Fifty years has passed and nothing has been done but the Hamas and the Islamic Jihad or Lebanese Hezbullah that are Muslims managed to stand up against the unstoppable Israeli's in a very short period of time.
Dr: May God bless your deceased relatives. You saved me so much time.
Sh: I accept that Islam is not separated from politics and that if a country is governed based on religion it would be better for the people as they would be guided in the right way. In fact, Doctor, politics are our religion and religion is our politics.
Dr: Now I wish to add two facts.
Sh: In what regard?
Dr: Regarding not supporting a country that is a government of oppression.
Sh: Please go ahead.
Dr: In Musnad Tayalasi, volume 1, page 143, Hadith 1064 we have:
ﺍﷲ ﺻﻠﻲ ﺍﷲ ﺭﺳﻮﻝ ﻋﻠﻴﻨﺎ ﺩﺧﻞ ﻗﺎﻝ: ﻛﻌﺐ ﻋﻦ ﺃﺑﻴﻪ ﻋﻦ ﺍﻟﻬﻼﻟﻲ ﻣﻮﺳﻰ ﺣﺪﺛﻨﺎ ﻗﺎﻝ ﺍﻟﻤﻐﻴﺮﻩًْ ﺑﻦ ﺳﻠﻴﻤﺎﻥ ﺣﺪﺛﻨﺎ ﻗﺎﻝ ﺩﺍﻭﺩ ﺃﺑﻮ ﺣﺪﺛﻨﺎ ﻋﻤﻠﻬﻢ ﻓﻲ ﺷﺮﻛﻬﻢ ﻓﻤﻦ ﺍﷲ ﻃﺎﻋﻪًْ ﺑﻐﻴﺮ ﻳﻌﻤﻠﻮﻥ ﺍﻣﺮﺍء ﺑﻌﺪﻱ ﻳﻜﻮﻥ ﺍﻧﻪ ﺗﺴﻤﻌﻮﻥ ﻫﻞ ﻫﺎﻫﻨﺎ ﻣﻦ ﻓﻘﺎﻝ ﺍﻟﻤﺴﺠﺪ ﻭﺳﻠﻢ ﻋﻠﻴﻪ ﻣﻨﻪ ﻭﺍﻧﺎ ﻣﻨﻰ ﻓﻬﻮ ﻇﻠﻤﻬﻢ ﻋﻠﻰ ﻳﻌﻨﻬﻢ ﻭﻟﻢ ﻋﻤﻠﻬﻢ ﻓﻲ ﻳﺸﺮﻛﻬﻢ ﻟﻢ ﻭﻣﻦ ﻣﻨﻪ ﻭﻟﺴﺖ ﻣﻨﻰ ﻓﻠﻴﺲ ﻇﻠﻤﻬﻢ ﻋﻠﻰ ﻭﺍﻳﻤﺎﻧﻬﻢ
"The Prophet entered the Mosque and said: Have you heard that after me there will be leaders that will be acting against what God has said? So anyone that supports the ones
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that oppress in their actions is not from me and I am not from them and anyone that does not support them is from me and I am from them."
Sh: Yes, this Hadith is correct.
Dr: Then based on this Hadith half of the Saudi Arabian Scholars, Jordan, Egypt and other Islamic countries are not from the Prophet.
Sh: What can I say? The truth is that scholars should not support the governments in oppressing people.
Dr: Now that the Islamic countries have started to act against the governments that are despotism, unfortunately, great scholars are not assisting as much. The dictatorship has even gone but countries such as Egypt, Tunisia, Yaman, Bahrain, Libya and ...are still standing behind and are not getting involved in guiding people and people have no religious role models.
Sh: Yes, this fact is apparent. Not having a religious leader is the main problem for all these countries.
Dr: Now I wish to say something new.
Sh: Is it still regarding the government? You managed to question not only all of the governments but the scholars by using these Hadith's, in which I agree with you.
Dr: But the Hadith said that any Scholar that does not support the government that is oppressing the people is from me.
Sh: What is the new thing you wish to say?
Dr: I think we are tired for today, allow us to talk about this new thing tomorrow.
Sh: I agree, so let's have a break and go to the Mosque.
Dr: If it is okay with you, please allow me to return to the hotel as my wife is waiting for me.
God willing I might get to see you again for the Maghrib prayer at the Mosque.
Sh: I agree. I hope you have a good day.