THE DOCTOR AND THE SHEIKHS' DEBATE
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noisy environment realized that in this trip it came handy. This situation continued until the end of my trip and I managed to sleep through it.
Before the morning call for prayer, I woke up. I did the Ordinal Bath for the Prophet's (s.a.w.a)
blessing and the Imams of Baqi and headed to the mosque for prayer. After the Morning Prayer I went to the Imams Baqi and sent my blessings. The Imams of Baqi is the most important graveyard in the Islamic world. In this cemetery some of the Ahl al Bayt (Greetings to them), the Prophet's (s.a.w.a) wives, the martyrs of Uhud, the martyrs of Hurrah (Medina Martyrs in the Yazid's troop attack in year 63 A.H)
Many voices of blessings and the sound of the Baqi keepers, asking people not to read the blessings off books and not to cry and mourn for the dead could be heard… I visited the Baqi, went back to the hotel and slept again.
I headed towards the Shrine at 9:30. I arrived fifteen minutes before ten. I read my blessings and waited for the Sheikh by the column agreed that we had agreed on. He arrived on time. However, I had a feeling that he must have also had something going on before our meeting at the mosque.
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The Twentieth of Zyqadeh
Dr: Dear Sheikh, good day
Sh: Good day to you, Doctor
Dr: Shall we have a seat somewhere?
Sh: We can sit wherever we want, however, if we go and sit close to the end of the mosque where people gather to read the Quran together we shall be less interrupted.
Dr: Let's go then.
We sat closer to one of the columns situated where the mosque had no roof and upon rain or in the day it would be covered by tents.
Dr: Dear Mr Sheikh Ibrahim you are an educated person from the university and so am I. Would you like to meet with me on a more organised schedule while we are here for Hajj so you could answer my religious questions? My field of practice is technical and I have come to Hajj quiet often, therefore I have accumulated many religious questions during my visits.
Sh: Yes, of course there is no problem with us meeting on a more organised basis so I could answer your questions.
Dr: If you agree, let's first clear a couple of small discussions so we do not get confused especially the conversations we had yesterday.
Proof of Brotherhood (Shias are Muslims)
Sh: Which conversation?
Dr: The part where you said that you didn’t agree on the Iranian Muslims.
Sh: But this is in fact the essence of our discussion and not a small matter.
Dr: Very well, then let's clarify a few important matters first.
Sh: Very well.
The one God
Dr: Do you agree that Iranian and in specific Shias believe in God?
Sh: Yes, Shias believe in God however we could debate on that too.
Dr: Please allow us to just concentrate on the principle of accepting God. Do they believe in God?
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Sh: Yes, they believe in God.
The one Prophet
Dr: Do Shias believe in the Prophet (s.a.w.a)?
Sh: Yes, they believe in the Prophet (s.a.w.a). However there is still an issue where Shias at the end of their prayers mention "Khan al Amin" meaning Gabriel betrayed the secrecy and instead of bringing the revelation for Ali he brought it for Mohammad (s.a.w.a).
Dr: Have you read this in a Shia written book?
Sh: No, I haven't read them in Shia books. However, I have heard about it many times and I have seen it in many books published in Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Pakistan.
Dr: Have you met one common Shia that believes in such a thing?
Sh: I have not been in touch with many Shias, however, as an educated person from a university please tell me if such a thing exists then I will accept it. In my opinion it is highly unlikely for a Muslim to believe in such a thing.
Dr: I thank you so much for trusting in my opinion.
Sh: But if such a thing does not exist amongst Shias then how come they are accused of it?
Dr: Dear honorable Sheikh this is a tremendous accusation, not only for the Shias living in Iran but even amongst the Shias in the world there is not a single one that says such a thing.
Sh: Then how come this accusation has been spread?
Dr: You, yourself are saying that it is an accusation. It is not very hard to spread such a rumor especially for government's that wish to destroy the way that Shias are portrayed.
Sh: Anyway, I accept that such a thing does not exist because it is not something that Muslims would be proud of and you are also saying that it is not true.
Dr: Amongst the conversations as I said: there is not one case, it is not even mentioned in non credible Shia books and if any Shia would hear such a thing they would be disgusted.
Sh: I have to say that I have neither seen it in any books or credible writings from Sunni followers that suggest the Shia faith say this thing.
The one Quran
Dr: The next question is do Shias believe in the Quran?
Sh: Yes, Shias believe in the Quran but also believe that the Quran has been distorted. The revelations have been changed and the correct Quran is Ali's Quran.
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Dr: The Shia faith believes that Imam Ali assembled the verses and chapters of the same existing Quran in addition to some extra explanation of some verses. However, to keep the unity he did not mention it and accepted the current existing Quran and all the other Shia Imams accepted this Quran.
Sh: If such a discussion exists then how come Ali did not propose his Quran.
Dr: Just as I said:, Ali's Quran was the existing Quran with some extra explanations that Ali decided to disregard to preserve the unity of Muslims. He preferred everyone to have one Quran.
Sh: So, you are saying that everyone believes in the same existing Quran?
Dr: Yes, it is good for you to also know that the majority of the Qurans writings are in the same handwritings of Usman Taha. Meaning not only that the Qurans are not different but, the types of writings are the same as the other Muslim brothers. The majority of the published Quran books are from the handwritings of Usman Taha.
Sh: Thank the Lord, this news regarding the unity of the book is very good and interesting to me.
Dr: Please have a look at the small Quran that I am holding. It is published with Usman Taha handwriting. This Quran is published in Iran.
Sh: Very interesting the Farsi translation is written across it.
Dr: Then you accept that we have the same Quran.
Sh: Yes, I accept.
The one Qibla
Dr: Do you accept that we have one united Qibla?
Sh: Yes, I do not have any doubt. Your Qibla is also Kaaba.
Dr: Thank the Lord; at least we were in an agreement without arguing.
Sh: The sideline discussions weren't that serious. I just mentioned them as they were rumors and things that I had seen and read not anything substantially researched or proven to be correct.
Dr: Thank you for clarifying that it was a rumor and not a true affair.
Sh: We should now discuss the areas that we disagree upon.
Dr: We have many things that we disagree on so let's firstly prove our brotherhood then we can get on to the differences.
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The one Salat (Pray)
Sh: Very well, let's start.
Dr: Do you agree that the principles of our prayers are the same? Last night you and I prayed the Maghrib and Isha together.
Sh: I have to acknowledge that I didn’t believe it before however, after several trips to Hajj I came to the conclusion that the differences in praying between us are marginal and of minor importance. I was reassured when I saw several congregational prayers being held from the Iranian satellite channels and thankfully the congregational Imam would read all the worship words loudly. I realised that we truly have no serious difference and it is a minor variation.
We realized at this point that one of the pilgrims that later on was discovered to be from Syria had been observing us and desired to join our discussion. He got up and came back with two cups of Zamzam Water taken from the dish of water from the Mosque and offered it to us. He wanted to sit and listen to us talk. We accepted the water and thanked him and because we didn’t have time to talk about sideline matters we acted in a way to show that we weren't that eager to have him in the discussion and so he thanked us and left.
The one Hajj
Dr: Do you accept that we Shias have the same Hajj as other Muslims coming for Hajj?
Sh: Yes, due to Hajj being one of the rituals there isn't much difference between us.
Dr: Do you accept that some of the differences between Shia and Sunni's is not more than the differences between Hanbali and Shafi'ies?
Sh: Yes, I have seen in Egypt that many discussions between Shafi'ies are the same as yours.
Dr: Will you allow me to make an observation?
Sh: Please do so.
Dr: With explaining God, the Prophet (s.a.w.a), Quran, Salat, and Hajj being all the same can you accept that Shias are Muslims?
Sh: On a very serious note I accept that Shias are Muslims.
An Organised Discussion
Dr: Thank the Lord, If you agree lets discuss some of the differences in their own place.
Sh: Yes, especially in regards to matters such as the differences between ablution (Wudu) or prostrating on the ground.
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Dr: I even agree that we discuss even the minor differences.
Sh: But currently we do not have a lot of time to get to these discussions.
Dr: One of the characteristics of Hajj is these dialogues. Therefore, God willing within the duration of our whole Hajj we can spend at least two hours together to talk. This way God willing our hearts can come closer and the truth can be clarified for both of us.
Sh: You mean we have two hours of dialogue every day?
Dr: Do you not agree that scientific discussions have more oblation than non obligatory things?
Sh: Yes, I am scared to not be able to commit two hours every day to this.
Dr: We can plan the whole thing. We aren't required to make it a compulsory specific time or every day. If at any day we have any other engagement we can cancel the discussion and make up for it another day.
Sh: That is good, God willing he can help us so we could speak together for two hours every day.
Sh: Yes, however I wish to make a confession.
Dr: Confess to what? Please do say.
Sh: When I was in Syria I believed Shias to be Muslims but after going to Medina University and studying over here with the education the scholars were giving us I had no doubt that Shias were not Muslims. After many years studying I went back to Egypt and I was in Alazhar and there I noticed that they acknowledge Shias to be Muslims. That’s when I realized that Shias are Muslims however; they have differences with the four other religions.
Dr: Well then I have a couple of questions for you because my field is in Mechanics and you are a scholar in religion.
Sh: That is not a problem please ask.
The Rules for the Debate and Discussion
Dr: Thank you. But because we are educated from universities and my questions are embedded therefore, let's agree on some rules and principles. For discussions or as the British say debates there must be some regulations. With the understanding that we have from each other to the rules it is better for us to comply with it.
Sh: Does asking and answering questions need regulations?
Dr: While driving on the street needs rules and regulations do you not think it wise that a scientific and religious discussion would need boundaries?
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Sh: Then you don’t have any questions you wish to have a religious debate.
Dr: I have questions but you could call it a debate.
Sh: Agreed, evidently questions and answers require rules.
Dr: What are your thoughts about this principle?
Sh: Firstly, let's talk using cited basis documents, meaning we have to cite an Islamic document.
Secondly, let's not be bias towards our own beliefs. If we obtain the truth we agree to it. What is your opinion?
Dr: These are very good. In addition for citing legitimate chain of transmissions, let's rely on the most important ones such as the Quran. Anything that goes against the Quran is not acceptable.
Sh: Definitely, absolutely.
Dr: Please look at my mobile. It obtains single software that has been taken from the Library of the Al Masjid an Nabawi (s.a.w.a). It is called Maktab Shamilah. It has roughly 7000 books from our Sunni brothers. Would you accept these books as documents for me to cite?
Sh: I need to know about the books. If any of the books were acceptable to me then I will accept them. Now which books are you using in this programme?
Dr: My questions are based from these books.
Sh: Yes, the books that I see are all acceptable and good.
Dr: But in regards to the Hadith I will be citing from the books in this software.
Sh: I know these books. If you show me the book I can then see the Hadith.
Dr: If the Hadith or topic that we mention is acceptable then let's not have the need to cite it.
Sh: It is axiomatic because these are topics that we both agree on.
Dr: Anywhere the Quran has no decisive answer and cites and documents are not strong enough lets agree based on our own judgment.
Sh: That is good.
Dr: We trust each other, meaning we accept that none of us will lie about anything.
Sh: If that was the case then our debate would be baseless and pointless. I am sure that we both agree on each other's words.
Dr: Please allow me ask the first question
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Sh: Please go ahead.
The Lack of Probity of Companions in Quran
Dr: When I read the Quran I noticed that some parts require a great deal of attention.
Sh: For instance which verses?
Dr:
"When the hypocrites come to you, [O Muhammad], they say, "We testify that you are the Messenger of Allah." And Allah knows that you are His Messenger, and Allah testifies that the hypocrites are liars.
[Surat Al-Munāfiqūn (The Hypocrites)]"
Sh: Yes, the aim and purpose of the hypocrites is clear. The purpose is for the attention of Abdullah Abe and his followers and supporters. He is very famous in the history of Islam.
Dr: You are absolutely correct. It has also been explained in the verses that they first believed in God and then became infidels. In later verses it is mentioned that the hypocrites said: do not to spend time on those that are around the Prophet (s.a.w.a). They said that if we return to Medina the dear to the hearts (themselves) will deport the debased (Meaning Muslims) from Medina. So their destiny is clear and the interpretations of Quran clarify that.
Sh: Yes, their stories are written in commentary books and history.
Dr: However, my problem understands verse 101 Surat at Tawbah that says:
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"And among those around you of the Arabs are hypocrites, and [also] from the people of Medina. They have become accustomed to hypocrisy. You, [O Muhammad], do not know them, [but] we know them. We will punish them twice [in this world]; then they will be returned to a great punishment."
Sh: What is the problem?
Dr: Firstly, these are the hypocrites that are surrounded the Prophet (s.a.w.a). Secondly, they are from Medina; thirdly, The Prophet (s.a.w.a) does not know them.
Sh: Where is the problem?
Dr: I do not have a problem with the actual verse. My question is in regards to the proof of this verse and its difference and contradiction with some of the Hadith that are in your books.
Sh: What are the problem and the contradiction and differences that our Hadith has with this verse?
Dr: You, in the majority of your books have Hadith that pronounces the Prophet (s.a.w.a) saying:
"" ﺍﻫﺘﺪﻳﺘﻢMy ﺍﻗﺘﺪﻳﺘﻢ ﺑﺎﻳﻬﻢ ﻛﺎﻟﻨﺠﻮﻡ "ﺍﺻﺤﺎﺑﻲ companions are like stars, whichever of them you use as a guide, you will be rightly guided," extracted by Rizin."
Sh: We both agree on this Hadith so what contradiction is there with the verse?
Dr: Your scholars explain that the companions can be any person that has met the Prophet (s.a.w.a) or has not even set eyes upon him (is blind) and has believed in him and dies believing in him is classed as his companion. This is the case even if he has met the prophet during his youth and is adolescent.
Sh: That is correct.
Dr: But the subject matter is important that in this Hadith, following any companion has been recommended and even more importantly following any one of them will get you into heaven.
Sh: That is correct.
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Dr: However, this verse says: "O Prophet (s.a.w.a), some of your companions are in the direction of hypocrisy and you don't know them, God knows them and they will come to great agony."
Sh: Where is the problem?
Dr: The Prophet (s.a.w.a) does not know many of the companions that he has met and is in his acquaintance. Therefore, he is not aware of their infidelity. These people will experience great agony on judgement day and are hypocrites. Now if some Muslims follow these companions that even the Prophet (s.a.w.a) is unaware of them to be hypocrites, until they die, will they go to heaven?
Sh: There is a possibility that these hypocrite companions go to hell but their followers will be going into heaven because it has been said: in the Hadith that, to whichever one we trust we will be guided.
Dr: This cannot be because in Quran Surat Al- Isra it says: "