THE DOCTOR AND THE SHEIKHS' DEBATE
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Dr: Look above. Do you see green colored writing that has now been covered up with green paint? Do you know what they are?
Sh: It is hard to read.
Dr: I was here thirty years ago and the writing was not painted over then. The writing is from Ayat-ol-Tathir verse and it says:
ﺗَﻄْﻬِﻴﺮًﺍ ﻳُﻄَﻬِّﺮَﻛﻢُ ﻭَ ﺍﻟْﺒَﻴْﺖِ ﺃَﻫْﻞَ ﺍﻟﺮِّﺟْﺲَ ﻋَﻨﻜُﻢُ ﻟِﻴُﺬْﻫِﺐَ ﺍﻟﻠَّﻪُ ﻳُﺮِﻳﺪُ ِﺍﻧﻤﺎ
Sh: But the verse regarding Tathir was associated with the Prophet's wives.
Dr: It cannot be regarding all of the Prophet's wives and in fact it has been written above the house of Ali and Fatimah.
Sh: What does this prove?
Dr: It proves that Ahl al Bayt are the family of Ali.
Sh: Whom do you mean?
Dr: Meaning the Prophet, Ali, Fatimah, Hasan and Hussein.
Sh: How can you come up with such a conclusion from this writing? There are several more verses written around the Mosque and the chamber.
Dr: Apparently this was the same place the Prophet would come every morning and say:
ﺑﺮﻛﺎﺗﻪ ﻭ ﺍﷲ ﺭﺣﻤﻪًْ ﻭ ًْﺍﻟﺴﻼﻡ ﺍﻟﻨﺒﻮﻩ ﺑﻴﺖ ﺍﻫﻞ ﻳﺎ ﻋﻠﻴﻜﻢ
Sh: Well, all of the wives were at home.
Dr: This house was only that of only Fatimah and her children and her husband.
Sh: Do you mean to say that these five people were the only Ahl al Bayt?
Dr: Yes, exactly, the other people are not classed as Ahl al Bayt. Of course, Ahl al Bayt does not conclude on these five people alone. These five people were the centre and axis, the rest were associated because of them.
Sh: The verse for Tathir is regarded as the ones about the Prophet's wives and it discusses them.
Dr: Okay, let's read the verse.
Sh:
ﺗَﻄْﻬﻴﺮﺍً ﺮَﻛُﻢْ ﻳُﻄَﻬﱢ ﻭَ ﺍﻟْﺒَﻴْﺖِ ﺃَﻫْﻞَ ﺍﻟﺮﱢﺟْﺲَ ﻋَﻨْﻜُﻢُ ﻟِﻴُﺬْﻫِﺐَ ﺍﻟﻠﱠﻪُ ﻳُﺮﻳﺪُ ﺇِﻧﱠﻤﺎ
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Dr: Where it says " "ﺇِﻧﱠﻤﺎit means limitations, restrictions. Allah intends only to remove from you the impurity [of sin], O people of the [Prophet's] household, and to purify you with [extensive]
purification.
Sh: That is the correct translation but where does it says these five people?
Dr: In Arabic, " "ﻋﻨﻜﻢis used for Masculine plural pronoun. This means that at least, there were more males than females there. If this verse was about the Prophet's wives then it would be ten women and one male being the Prophet. That wouldn't make sense.
Sh: You have to include the close companions as well.
Dr: No, we cannot include them.
Sh: Why not?
Dr: Because the debate is over the people of the household. If your case was true then it should be saying the people that are around the house of the Prophet.
Sh: Are saying that Usman, the Prophet's son in law is not part of the Ahl al Bayt?
Dr: Usman is not the son in law of the Prophet and even if we agreed that he was, there is absolutely no book stating that he was part of the Ahl al Bayt.
Sh: Why is Usman not the Prophet's son in law? They name him " ﺍﻟﻨﻮﺭﻳﻦ ﺫﻱ ," this means that he had two of the Prophet's daughters, Roqayah and Zainab.
Dr: Yes, they grew up in the house of the Prophet with Khadijah but they were the
"( "ﺭﺑﺎﺋﺐstep daughters) of the Prophet and in reality they were the daughters of Khadijah's sisters.
Sh: Where do you bring such information from? No one has ever made such an accusation.
Dr: Look at the book of Ansab Al Shiraf, volume 1, page 98, and Shazrat Al Zahab, volume 1, and page 14. It says that Khadijah was 28 years old and married the Prophet. She had not been married before and Ghasem is their first son. There is no mention of these girls.
Sh: This is what Shias believe in. We do not accept this to be true.
Dr: Okay, there is a Lebanese researcher named Seyed Jafar Murteza. He wrote a book about this called "Rabaeb Al Nabi" and it has good chain of transmissions in it. Having said this there are other books that are saying the same thing such as Bala Zari in the book of Ansab Al Sahiraf and Abul Ghasem Kuni in the book of Al Istea'neh.
Sh: So Usman is not the Prophet's son in law?
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Dr: No he isn't. He is the husband of his step daughter.
Sh: Is there anyone in the Sunni faith saying such a thing?
Dr: The book of Khasais Ali written by Nesaei Shafia says that I have mentioned features of Ali that none of the other companions had and one of the features is that Ali was the Prophet's only son in law. Now if Usman was also the Prophet's son in law then Nesaei would have not said such a thing.
Sh: Then no one is classed as Ahl al Bayt besides these five people?
Dr: No one else.
Sh: Maybe no one came forward to claim such a title due to its unimportance.
Dr: Actually, this is a very important matter.
Sh: What is the importance of a person being part of the Ahl al Bayt or not?
Dr: Any impurity would be nowhere near them.
Sh: Well all of the companions were like this.
Dr: Have you forgotten our deal? We agreed that not all of the companions were considered good people and not all were guiding towards the righteous path.
Sh: I accept this but the ones around the Prophet and close to him were.
Dr: Have you forgotten us talking about the same people close to the Prophet that had gone to war against each other?
Sh: Yes, you are right. Well at last then we can say that the Prophet's wives and these five people were considered Ahl al Bayt.
Dr: Actually no, only the five people were Ahl al Bayt. The Prophet's wives were not part of it.
Sh: Why not?
Dr: For the same reasons I just talked to you about.
Sh: Please tell me. Tell me again.
Dr: First reason is that the Quran says:
ُ ﻋَﻨْﻜُﻢ ﻟِﻴُﺬْﻫِﺐَ
Now "
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There is only one woman, Fatimah so therefore, the pronoun "
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In Tafsir Ibn Kasir, volume 2, page 54 it says:
"Ali and Hasan and Hussein were along his side and Fatimah was behind him as they headed to curse"
In Tafsir Qurtabi, volume 4, page 103, and Tafsir Tabari, volume 6, page 481, Hadith number 7183 and Jalalin, volume 1, page 361 in Zeyl the verse starting with " ﺣﺎﺟﻚthis ﻓﻤﻦ ..." subject has been mentioned.
Sh: This is very interesting.
Dr: Now if you pay attention you will see that the sons of the Prophet mentioned here as " "ﺍﺑﻨﺎء are Hasan and Hussein. Where it says " "ﻧﺴﺎءyou can see that Fatimah's name is mentioned from all of the women and Prophet's wives. Where it says " "ﺍﻧﻔﺴﻨﺎit means Ali was like the Prophet himself. Therefore, this verse interprets the Ayatol Tathir as well. It means that these people were the closest to the Prophet and they are the Prophet's household.
Sh: You do know that once the leader of Nesara met with them he gave up on Mubahila.
Dr: Yes I know, you must already know the reason right? He told everyone else that the Prophet must be telling the truth as he would never bring his closest family to a place where there was a chance that they would be killed. In other words, even the leader of Nesara realized that these five people were the Ahl al Bayt. But some people just don't want to pay attention to these things.
Sh: This Verse that these people are the closest to the Prophet.
Dr: And that they are the Prophet's household. Therefore, they are Ahl al Bayt.
Sh: There is no question that they are Ahl al Bayt, the question only remains if these people are the only ones.
Dr: There is no question left as the Prophet didn't take anyone else with him to disregard any doubt of who are the Ahl al Bayt.
Sh: So can we say that the people that were not in Mubihla are not Ahl al Bayt, even the Prophet's wives?
Dr: Was Uma Salama not in the house of Prophet? She is not considered as Ahl al Bayt. She wasn't in Mubahila either so she wasn't mentioned in the verse of Tathir either.
Sh: Yes, you are right because no impurity or contamination ever rose from any of these people.
Dr: There were other people in the Prophet's house that did not conduct any evil or filth but God did not class them as Ahl al Bayt because they had to be pure from birth. Just like Ali has other
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children from other wives but they are not considered as Ahl al Bayt. They were also followers and servants of Ahl al Bayt.
Sh: We have a very special and high regard towards this family too.
Dr: Yes, you do have high respect for them but it seems Ibn Teymiyah did not and was at war with Ahl al Bayt. Dr Sabih mentions in the book of Alazhar regarding Ibn Teymiyah and him opposing the Prophet's Ahl al Bayt.
Sh: Yes, Dr Sabih is not a Sunni and is from the Azmiye Group of Egypt that are not Shias but he likes the Ahl al Bayt a lot.
Dr: Yes, he also has a weblog and is consistently responding to questions regarding Ibn Teymiyah and the Wahabis deviating Islam.
Dr: We do have books from your own school regarding Ayatol Tathir stating that it is regarding these five people.
Sh: You mean to say that it clearly states that the Ahl al Bayt are these five people?
Dr: Here you go. There are many proofs in your own books and this Hadith in specific has been mentioned many times.
Sh: Which Hadith?
Dr: In Khasais Nesaei this Hadith has been mentioned several times that Muawiyah asked Saad Ibn Qas why do you not class Ali as your enemy. He mentioned three reasons and one of them was because he was the Prophet's Ahl al Bayt.
Sh: I have not heard of this Hadith.
Dr: Third chapter, Hadith number 15:
ﻦ ﺑѧ ﺑﻜﻴѧﺮ ﻋѧﻦ ﺣѧﺎﺗﻢ ﺣѧﺪﺛﻨﺎ ﻗѧﺎﻻ: ﺍﻟﺪﻣﺸѧﻘﻲ ﻋﻤѧﺎﺭ ﺑﻦ ﻭﻫﺸﺎﻡ ﺍﻟﺒﻠﺨﻲ، ﺳﻌﻴﺪ ﺑﻦ ﻗﺘﻴﺒﻪًْ )ﺃﺧﺒﺮﻧﺎ( ـ ٣/ ٥١ /٢ ﺗѧﺮﺍﺏ؟ ﺃﺑѧﺎ ﺗﺴѧﺐ ﺍﻥ ﻳﻤﻨﻌѧﻚ ﻣѧﺎ ﻓﻘѧﺎﻝ: ﺳѧﻌﺪﺍ ﻣﻌﺎﻭﻳѧﻪًْ ﺃﻣѧﺮ ﻗѧﺎﻝ: ﻭﻗﺎﺹ ﺍﺑﻲ ﺑﻦ ﺳﻌﺪ ﺑﻦ ﻋﺎﻣﺮ ﻋﻦ ﻣﺴﻤﺎﺭ ﺍﺣѧﺐ ﻣﻨﻬѧﺎ ﻭﺍﺣѧﺪﻩًْ ﻟѧﻲ ﻳﻜѧﻮﻥ ﻟѧﺌﻦ ﺃﺳѧﺒﻪ ﻓﻠѧﻦ ﻭﺳﻠﻢ ﻋﻠﻴﻪ ﺍﷲ ﺻﻠﻲ ﺍﷲ ﺭﺳﻮﻝ ﻗﺎﻟﻬﻦ ﺛﻼﺛﺎ ﺫﻛﺮﺕ ﺃﻧﺎ ﻓﻘﺎﻝ:
ﻟѧﻪ ﻓﻘѧﺎﻝ ﻣﻐﺎﺯﻳѧﻪ، ﻌѧﺾ ﺑ ﻓѧﻲ ﻭﺧﻠﻔﻪ ﻟﻪ ﻳﻘﻮﻝ ﻭﺳﻠﻢ ﻋﻠﻴﻪ ﺍﷲ ﺻﻠﻲ ﺍﷲ ﺭﺳﻮﻝ ﺳﻤﻌﺖ ﺍﻟﻨﻌﻢ، ﺣﻤﺮ ﻣﻦ ﺇﻟﻲ ﺍﻥ ﺗﺮﺿѧﻰ ﺃﻣﺎ ﻭﺳﻠﻢ: ﻋﻠﻴﻪ ﺍﷲ ﺻﻠﻲ ﺍﷲ ﺭﺳﻮﻝ ﻓﻘﺎﻝ ﻭﺍﻟﺼﺒﻴﺎﻥ؟ ﺍﻟﻨﺴﺎء ﻣﻊ ﺃﺗﺨﻠﻔﻨﻲ ﺍﷲ ﺭﺳﻮﻝ ﻳﺎ ﻋﻠﻲ:
ﺑﻌﺪﻱ. ﻧﺒﻮﻩًْ ﻻ ﺍﻧﻪ ﺇﻻ ﻣﻮﺳﻰ ﻣﻦ ﻫﺎﺭﻭﻥ ﺑﻤﻨﺰﻟﻪًْ ﻣﻨﻲ ﺗﻜﻮﻥ ﻭﻟﻨѧѧﺎ ﻓﺘﻄﺎ ﻭﺭﺳѧѧﻮﻟﻪ ﺍﷲ ﻭﻳﺤﺒѧѧﻪ ﻭﺭﺳѧѧﻮﻟﻪ ﺍﷲ ﻳﺤѧѧﺐ ﺭﺟѧѧﻼ ﻏѧѧﺪﺍ ًْﻭﺳѧѧﻤﻌﺘﻪ ﺍﻟﺮﺍﻳѧѧﻪ ﻻﻋﻄѧѧﻴﻦ ﺧﻴﺒѧѧﺮ: ﻳѧѧﻮﻡ ﻳﻘѧѧﻮﻝ ﺇﻟﻴﻪ. ﺍﻟﺮﺍﻳﻪًْ ﻭﺩﻓﻊ ﻋﻴﻨﻴﻪ ﻓﻲ ﻓﺒﺼﻖ ﺃﺭﻣﺪ، ﺑﻪ ﻓﺄﺗﻲ ﻋﻠﻴﺎ، ﺇﻟﻰ ﺍﺩﻋﻮﺍ ﻓﻘﺎﻝ ﺇﻟﻴﻬﺎ، ﺻѧﻠﻲ ﺍﷲ ﺭﺳѧﻮﻝ ﺩﻋѧﺎ « ﺗَﻄْﻬﻴѧﺮﺍً ﻳُﻄَﻬﱢѧﺮَﻛُﻢْ ﻭَ ﺍﻟْﺒَﻴْѧﺖِ ﺃَﻫْѧﻞَ ﺍﻟﺮﱢﺟْﺲَ ﻋَﻨْﻜُﻢُ ﻟِﻴُﺬْﻫِﺐَ ﺍﻟﻠﱠﻪُ ﻳُﺮﻳﺪُ ﺇِﻧﱠﻤﺎ » :ﻭﻟﻤﺎ ﻧﺰﻟﺖ ﺑﻴﺘﻲ. ﺍﻫﻞ ﻫﺆﻻء ﺍﻟﻠﻬﻢ ﺎﻝ: ﻓﻘ ﻭﺣﺴﻴﻨﺎ ﻭﺣﺴﻨﺎ ﻭﻓﺎﻃﻤﻪًْ ﻋﻠﻴﺎ ﻭﺳﻠﻢ ﻋﻠﻴﻪ ﺍﷲ
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"...Amer Ibn Saad Ibn Abi Vaqqas said: Muawiyah ordered Saaed Ibn Vaqas and said:
What prevents you from calling Abu Torab (Ali) as your enemy? He replied: I remember three things that the Prophet said: About Ali and that is why I do not class him as enemy because if I had any one of those reasons I could be happier than the bests blessings. I heard the Prophet say to him: He was a successor for the Prophet in some wars (In Medina). Ali said: O, Messenger of God, are you leaving me with the women and children?
The Prophet said: Are you not happy to be replacing my presence just like Haroon was to Moses? As there is no Prophet assigned after me."
I heard that on the day of Kheybar he said: Tomorrow I shall give the flag to a man that loves his God and his Messenger and his God and his Messenger love him back. So we all started to wish that we were that man. Then he said: Bring Ali. As my eyes were hurting he rubbed his fingers on his lips and onto my eyes and then gave the flag to Ali.
When the verse " ﺗَﻄْﻬﻴﺮﺍًwas ﻳُﻄَﻬﱢﺮَﻛُﻢْ ﻭَ ﺍﻟْﺒَﻴْﺖِ ﺃَﻫْﻞَ ﺍﻟﺮﱢﺟْﺲَ ﻋَﻨْﻜُﻢُ ﻟِﻴُﺬْﻫِﺐَ ﺍﻟﻠﱠﻪُ ﻳُﺮﻳﺪُ "ﻧﱠﻤﺎ ِﺇ revealed the Prophet named Ali, Fatimah, Hasan, Hussein and he said: God these are my Ahl al Bayt.
Sh: Dear Doctor we spent debating in the Mosque today. If you are in an agreement with us meeting again in Mecca then we could continue our debate there as I am leaving tomorrow and I only have this afternoon to spend time reading supplications. I have to go as I have some shopping to do as well.
Dr: That is not a problem. Allow me to write down my contact details and give them to you. You could write yours too and God willing after conducting the ordinances please keep your phone on.
Sh: This is my number please write your details on my book too.
Dr: Please consider me in your prayers.
Sh: I definitely will have you in my prayers.
Dr: Praise be to Allah, Praise be to Allah, Praise be to Allah.
Sh: You said it three times. Was there a philosophy behind that?
Dr: Yes.
Sh: What was the philosophy?
Dr: That you agreed to pray whilst reading your supplication for me. Because you used to say that the way you pray is different. That you say Salam and that is it.
Sh: Well when I read the book of Mafatih my opinions regarding supplications changed and therefore, I will definitely consider you in my prayers.
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Why is Passing In front of Worshipers Prevented? Where does it originate from?
The Sheikh and I were sitting on the platform of As-hab Sofhe between a population and we were waiting for the call for the prayer. An elderly Arab Sheikh that had a long beard was busy praying next to us. Someone came to pass in front of him he suddenly hit the by passer hard on his chest. The by passer fell on the other people sitting and everyone got disorganised over the chaos. The people surrounding gave the sheikh a rude stare. When the Sheikh's praying was over I said to him: Dear Sheikh, what you did was wrong. Why did you hit another person so hard while you were talking to God? The Sheikh said: If I had killed him it would have still been okay. I asked: Why? He said: Because he wanted to create separation between me and my God.
I said: How far away are you from Mecca, Masjid Al Haram and Kabaa? He asked: What does that have to do with anything? I said: If you are talking about the distance between you and Qibla meaning Kabaa, then there are thousands of spaces separating you. Therefore, If someone by passes you then it is still okay. He said: But we have Hadith from the Prophet saying that if someone tried to bypass you whilst praying then stop him and if he persisted you can even kill him.
I said: The Hadith you mentioned has no credit. He got angry was just about to hit me too. I left him and went back to Sheikh Ibrahim.
Dr: By the way this case of passing through people that are praying or bypassing in front of them seems to be taken very seriously by some.
Sh: Yes, we have Hadith that we should not bypass someone that is praying.
Dr: Yes that is right. But this is another one of those discredited Hadith's.
Sh: No, that is not the case. Many believe in it and abide by it especially in Saudi Arabia.
Dr: There are many people in countries such as Pakistan and Afghanistan that are like this too.
Sh: Well it is the religious belief and faith of the person and there is no harm in it as it prevents the person praying to not get distracted.
Dr: But these unnecessary prejudice behaviors are the cause of the worshipers to be pessimistic against each other.
Sh: It isn't prejudice there are some that believe in this and we should respect that.
Dr: What about the officers and police and shrine officials who walk by and between people that are praying all the time?
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Sh: They are making a mistake too because once someone is praying no one should pass in front of them unless there is a barrier or obstacle preventing them from moving behind the person.
Dr: Which credited Hadith do you have regarding this?
Sh: There are many.
Dr: If there is plenty then why do only a few Islamic Sects follow it?
Sh: Maybe they are not convincing enough to follow.
Dr: I don't have time to show you all of the Hadith's but here are some from your own books stating that it is okay to pass in front of someone that is worshiping.
Sh: Let's see from which books you find such Hadith from.
Dr: God willing, let's see.
It was time to pray. Afterwards:
Dr: Here you go, this is Bukhari, volume 12, page 134, Hadith 369 in Sunan Nisani and Musnad Ahmad, volume 51, page 150; volume 52, page 254 and Muslem volume 2, page 90 and 329 stating that Aisha said: When the Prophet was praying my feet was in front of him. When he wanted to prostrate I would bend my legs and then I would stretch them again.
This has been mentioned ten other places too.
Sh: What else do you have?
Dr: Do you mean that was not enough?
Sh: You mentioned a couple of Hadith's.
Dr: But the same Hadith has been mentioned by several credited people such as Musnaf Abd ul Razaq, volume 2, page 22, Hadith 2373:
Abd ul Razaq says that Urur Ibn Zabir quotes from Aisha:
"The Prophet was praying and I was between him and Qibla sitting on the mattress. I said:
Was the mosque wall between you? Aisha said: No, because the Prophet was in the house within his own four walls.
In the same book Hadith number 2374 it says: I was between him and the Qibla just like a dead person."
Sh: There appears to be more.
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Dr: Yes, in the book of Sunan Kobra Beyhaghi, volume 2, page 276 it mentioned that Muslem and Bukhari said:
"Ibn Abbas says: On the day of Arafa the Prophet was conducting congregational prayer and people were praying with him. I and Fazl Ibn Abbas entered Arafa with our horse and donkey. We passed the lines and no one complained."
Afterwards it quotes from Bukhari and Muslem:
"We let go of the donkey and the donkey passed by the lines and no one complained either."
So you can see that not only a person but a donkey can pass by between people that are praying and no one has complained. The Prophet said nothing too.
Sh: Please allow me to see this because I think that these sayings have real credited proof.
Sheikh had a look at the chain of transmissions and repeatedly said: Forgive me God, Forgive me God.
Sh: I think that we should go over our own chain of transmissions and read them with precision again.
Dr: Actually a couple of years ago we had a little get together with Doctor Hamdan Al-Ghamdi, the head of the Theology School of the University of Umm Al Qura University. After debating for about two hours, Doctor Hamdan said: I am inviting you to accompany two other University officials to come to Mecca as my guest next year for the month of Ramadan. I said: I invited him in return but he insisted that we go first.
Sh: I have heard of Dr Hamdan and apparently he is into debating with different kinds of people.
Dr: He has a mosque that spends most of the time answering questions and problems regarding Wahabis.
Sh: So, what happened in the end.
Dr: What I am trying to say is that after debating for two hours I said to myself that if there were any questions or doubts regarding books of Ahl al Bayt, then by studying Arabic and many chain of transmissions and other historical books I came to better understand and believe my own school and the School of Ahl al Bayt. As I read through your books I came to understand my own faith because you have many chains of transmissions that strengthen the belief of the Shias.
Sh: I do agree that many of our scholars have not spent time reading our own chain of transitions. I only have one question and that is how did you get to study these?